Water Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Byford

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Byford]

My Lords, I apologise that I was not able to play a large enough part in Committee. However, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, can tell me what Ofwat does not have. My understanding, having had earlier briefings from Ofwat, was that it already had a sustainable development plan duty, which the Bill will further introduce and strengthen. What is missing from the responsibilities that Ofwat already has? I am a little confused.

[Lord Whitty]

Did the noble Baroness mean to say, “Before the noble Lord sits down”?

[Baroness Byford]

I am sorry; I did not think that that was necessary at this stage—I hope I am correct. That is my question for the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I am slightly confused about what is expected of Ofwat in terms of its sustainability duties. I thought that that was written in and already exists. Hence I am not sure where the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, would take us.

[Lord Whitty]

I am not sure of the procedure at this point, so I will not reply now.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Byford

Wednesday 6th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, nobody is disputing that, at present, after years of operation of the Agricultural Wages Board and the economics of the industry, a lot of agricultural workers are paid above the minimum rate and above rates in some other industries. To that extent, I agree with him. My point is that the Government have refused to do what the House asked them to do under the Public Bodies Bill and present us with a full explanatory memorandum with arguments for the abolition and arguments against any other alternatives. They have tried to cut corners on this, but their own experts tell them that the net effect of this will be a substantial cut in rural workers’ incomes.

If the House votes for the Government’s amendment and defeats my amendment to that amendment, that is what they are voting for tonight and they had better recognise it. That is the message they will be sending out to rural areas. I am looking perhaps particularly to people on the Liberal Democrat Benches who were not committed by their manifesto to this abolition, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said. I do believe that the Government have got this wrong. We could have had a more coherent debate had we gone down the route of the Public Bodies Bill and the Government had produced their range of statistics and we could have had a sensible argument. Instead, we have a minimalist consultation, minimalist information and the Government sticking to an ideological position, supported by some elements of the farming industry but by no means all, and prepared to try and push through something which has an impact on the incomes of a lot of rural workers and their families. My amendment would allow a better way forward, a modernising way forward, and a reduction of bureaucracy, but it would retain the central protection that those agricultural workers have had and which they deserve to retain.

[Baroness Byford]

My Lords. I will be very brief. Three times the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has referred to the rural workforce. This is nothing to do with the rural workforce; it is to do with the Agricultural Wages Board and he is misleading colleagues if he keeps using that phrase.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate said two things. First, the agriculture workforce is a smaller proportion of the rural workforce than it used to be, but also the Agricultural Wages Board is taken, either in its substance or in the rate of increase, to a lot of other rural workers, so it does affect a wider range than those who are legally entitled to Agricultural Wages Board rates. It is not the whole of the rural workforce, but it is nevertheless taking £250 million out of the rural economy, ostensibly giving it to the farmers, but actually giving it to the supermarkets. If that is what the House wishes to vote for tonight, they had better be clear that that is what they are doing.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Whitty and Baroness Byford

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Byford]

I would like to take the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, back to 2000 when we had a long debate on the CROW Act. Why do I refer to that? I do so because he has suggested that this bit has been slipped into another Bill. The CROW Act was four different Acts in one Act. The last bit dealt with areas of outstanding natural beauty. It went through the whole of the Commons before that bit was printed up at all. It then came to this House, and I was sitting opposite the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, when he introduced it formally at Second Reading. I said to him clearly at the time that I was not prepared to go into the Committee stage before we had that legislation before us to consider it as a whole Bill. So I think that his protesting too much about how this part of the Bill is being introduced is a little rich.

[Lord Whitty]

Since we are going down this historic road with the noble Baroness, which I am delighted at, the difference is that by then my right honourable friend Alun Michael had already signalled in the Commons that we would be coming forward with substantive provisions. Nothing was done in the same way on the same amendment.

[Baroness Byford]

I perhaps would not agree with him because, if I can take him further along down memory lane, the Bill was debated in this House, amendments were made and it returned to the Commons. Several Members who were in the Commons at that time will well remember that at that stage not one word of the amendments in the areas of outstanding natural beauty were debated in the Commons because it was guillotined. That is what happens. Therefore, the noble Lord is being slightly mischievous this afternoon in perhaps protesting too much.

However, I return to the substance. I should again declare that we are family farmers. We used to employ people but are now part of an arrangement with a neighbouring farmer who does the work for us. I also declare the fact that, like the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, we have always had a good working relationship with our employees. Many of them were housed on the farm and some still live in housing on the farm, many years after they retired. I would hate to think that other Members of the Committee, perhaps responding to the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, believe that all is bad out there, because clearly it is not—and it should go on the record that it is not.

The noble Lord, Lord Plumb, referred to the hugely expensive machinery that we have these days. Obviously, you pay your workforce according to the work that they do. Personally, I am very happy to support the proposals that the Government are making, in that we should look again at what job these boards still do, and whether it is necessary. The introduction of the minimum wage in 1999 made a huge difference—two pence is what we are talking about, and most farmers pay more than that to a lot of their workers. The noble Lord also mentioned the fact that some employers have not practised well, if I can use that expression. I shall think of better words. I remind the noble Lord that in response to that his Government rightly brought in the gangmasters Act. There was a case recently in the paper where it was declared that two family members were employing people in dreadful conditions, underpaying them and keeping them virtually confined. That is an absolute disgrace and any practice like that should be hit on the head. It should not be allowed—and I use this opportunity to reinforce that point, because it is hugely important. Where there is bad practice, it should not be allowed. The gangmasters Act, which the noble Lord and I took through the House, has teeth and it should happen. I am therefore more resolved in supporting the Government in their proposals than I might have been had we not had the gangmasters Act behind us.

Today we live in a very different era from when we first introduced the Agricultural Wages Board. The workforce is smaller in many ways, and its members multitask in many ways—they are not just labourers. I know that reference has been made to horticultural workers. To a certain extent, that is much more mundane work because of the nature of what they are doing. However, for anyone who wants to get on in life and run a good business, the one thing you should always remember is that your business is successful only if your workers are well looked after and encouraged to work well.

I hope that Committee Members will support this move, which will allow the agricultural industry slightly greater flexibility. It may be that wages are slightly better in one particular area than another but in normal business, people working down here in London get paid more than they do up north. Nobody goes to town about that saying that it is outrageous. The responsibility is on the farmers to make sure that they employ fairly and pay fairly. In this day and age we do not still need the wages board. I support the government amendment.