Grenfell Response

Lord Whitty Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her remarks. To reassure her, there are two points to be made. First, we are having a consultation on Dame Judith Hackitt’s report and the framework changes that are necessary. I think consultation is right before one proceeds with legislation in that situation. However, that has not stopped us doing things in relation to urgent action. As the noble Baroness knows, we have also banned combustible ACM cladding on buildings. The Secretary of State has acted decisively with progressing Approved Document B, which should be ready at the end of July. Behaviour change has been highlighted and has therefore started, but I accept that there is more to be done. I, too, sometimes get frustrated and wish that we could do it more quickly, but it would be wrong and inappropriate to suggest that we have not done some very important things. Indeed, we have ensured that ACM cladding is coming off social and private-sector blocks. That has meant the commitment of some considerable amount of public money, but it is the right thing to do.

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and I agree with many—all, I think—of the points that have been made, but two underlying issues do not seem to have been addressed. The first is the clear failure of the authorities in this instance—it appears also to be true of Barking—to listen to the concerns of residents. In Grenfell, there were anxieties about not only the cladding but the lack of containment between flats, which used to be a common feature of most council blocks, the removal of the piping in the ducts, the lack of a sprinkler system and the lack of an effective alarm system. All those things had been raised months and years before the tragedy happened by the people who lived there, and by and large they were ignored. From the instant reports from Barking, it sounds as though a very similar situation arose there. It is part of what is often a failure of the authorities to recognise the expertise of the people who live in these premises and understand the situation. Unless there is a more responsive attitude by the authorities, regrettably, we will see more of these tragedies. Whatever we do to change the law and the regulations, effectively the best policers of the situations in those buildings will be the residents themselves, and we need to listen to them.

The second aspect, which would reinforce that, is resources. It is not just a question of the regulations. We know that in most local authorities building regulation has become a Cinderella service, and quite frequently seriously understaffed. Unless we—from the Government through to local authorities—put more people into building regulation, planning departments and the Health and Safety Executive, the buildings we put up now will not be fit for purpose, in the same way that Grenfell eventually and tragically turned out to be not fit for purpose. Those two features also need to be addressed as part of the culture or agency for the people who live there, to whom the right reverend Prelate referred, as a comprehensive and holistic solution to these issues.

Finally, it is still not comprehensible to those who were living in Kensington and know the situation that there have been no prosecutions. Until that is remedied, this tragic episode cannot be truly finished.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for that important contribution. I shall take his three points in the order he made them. The first was on the failure of the authorities. It is a very fair point, and something we are focused on. He will understand that I cannot comment on the situation in Barking; it is very early days and we have not yet analysed it sufficiently to be able to comment on it. However, I accept that something central to the messages that we are getting and to common sense is that the people who know their housing best are the people who live in it. That fundamental lesson needs to sink in and be taken forward.

I know that noble Lords and many others think the public inquiry is painfully slow, but 200,000 documents are being examined and will inform the response of the three commissioners. I very much welcome the additional two commissioners. They will be very helpful, but I agree with the point the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is making. In relation to resources, the budget is important. Changes in regulations will no doubt feature in the spending review, but I would not disagree with that either.

In relation to prosecutions and the police situation, the noble Lord will know that the separation of powers is such that I cannot comment in any detail on what is happening. Indeed, I do not know in any detail what is happening, but interviews have been held under caution. In such a situation, one would expect there to be potential for ensuring that those who are to blame for aspects of this are brought to justice. While the matters that relate to the police are quite rightly not within the control of government on a daily basis, it seems that work is happening in that regard.