Counter-terrorism

Lord Watson of Wyre Forest Excerpts

Thursday 20th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

As I said in my statement, the first duty of any Government is the security of the people, but that has to be balanced against the wider civil liberties that my hon. Friend and I both hold dear. What we are achieving is the proper balance. What was in place before was unbalanced and, as I just said in answer to our hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), it was not contributing to extra safety against terrorism, but was potentially a power in the hands of the state that could have been abused. My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) will not want the state to have powers that it could potentially abuse.

[Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)]

I have a hunch that both sides of the House could have united on a position around the reduction of pre-trial detention. But given that the Minister has just said that the security threat is such that the House should retain some form of emergency powers, is it not reasonable to ask that the Home Secretary should have come and put the evidence for that to the House? Can the Minister confirm that it was the intention of his Department to make this announcement by written ministerial statement on Monday, which would not have allowed any debate?

[Damian Green]

The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point about the reserve powers. The significant change is that instead of having something on the statute book to be used without any parliamentary scrutiny, we propose that Parliament should be able to act quickly, because we can imagine circumstances in which quick action is needed, while not leaving these onerous and draconian powers on the statute book. That seems to be a significant step forward towards proper balance and to giving Parliament more power over the process, which I am sure that he would welcome.

Metal Theft

Lord Watson of Wyre Forest Excerpts

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. You remain the fastest voter I have ever seen, so if there is another Division I will attempt to keep up with you.

I am here to talk about

“the second biggest threat to our infrastructure after terrorism”.

Those are the words that Paul Crowther, of the British Transport police, used to describe the growing problem of metal theft in the UK. It is my contention that, if al-Qaeda or militant student demonstrators perpetrated some of the attacks to critical UK infrastructure on the scale and frequency that we are currently seeing, the Home Office would be taking this matter far more seriously than it currently appears to be taking it.

--- Later in debate ---

On resuming—

[Mr Watson]

Whether it is copper from the side of a railway line, broadband cable, a drain gully or lead flashing from a school roof, not a day goes by when metal theft does not feature in the daily crime roster for police in the UK’s towns and cities. I seek to make the case to the Minister that metal theft is a national problem needing urgent attention. It is eroding our critical infrastructure and therefore the economic capacity of the nation. After outlining the issues, I will make the case for the need to collect more accurate data on metal theft incidents, for amending the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 and for protecting uniformed British Transport police. I will also make the case for new regulations to deal with the rise of unscrupulous dealers in precious metals.

The Minister has gained a reputation for being hard-working and fair-minded. I hope to convince him to focus in the coming months on the increasing problem of metal theft. Many businesses and police officers to whom I have spoken are frustrated with the progress made in the past, including—dare I say?—under my own Government. Six months into the coalition Government, I hope that he has found his feet and will be able to move up a gear in that policy area.

The Home Office line appears to be that the police have the necessary tools and powers to tackle metal theft: I will make the case that they do not. The problem is great for two important reasons: soaring commodity prices and the ineffectiveness of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. In the past two years, for example, the price of refined copper has more than doubled on international markets. Part of the problem faced by the Minister is that his Department has found it difficult to understand the scale of the problem because it has not collected the appropriate data.

Using the Freedom of Information Act, I have undertaken a comprehensive assessment into the effects of metal theft in local authorities up and down the country in 2007, 2008 and 2009. It is not an exact picture, but it provides a more comprehensive view of the scale of misery caused by metal theft throughout the country. The results are shocking, but since a number of authorities have not responded to my FOI request, I fear that my newly compiled figures are just the tip of the iceberg.

We found 1,873 reported instances of schools being targeted by metal thieves, predominantly for the lead from their roofs. We know that 185 leisure centres and 156 community centres have been targeted, as have—shockingly—71 cemeteries and crematoriums. Thirty-three local authorities told me that metal theft has cost them more than £100,000 in insurance claims and repair costs. My borough of Sandwell has suffered the highest losses of any authority—more than £720,000. It is closely followed by Leicester, which lost £530,000, and Greenwich, which lost more than £470,000.

Last October alone, Sandwell council lost £20,000. Such thefts have cost Sandwell, and councils in Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Walsall, nearly £1.6 million over the past three years. The scale is huge and it is getting bigger. It is not taking place just in the country’s metal-bashing heartlands: the London boroughs of Greenwich, Sutton, Bexley, Bromley, Barking, Dagenham, Enfield, Havering and Redbridge estimate that between them, they have lost £1.9 million as a result of metal theft.

Anything can go. Three stainless steel slides were stolen from Birmingham, and the city also lost £30,000- worth of goal posts. Durham council raised 97 repair orders for its schools, and admitted that that may not even begin to dig into the problem. Sheffield lost a swimming pool roof that cost £200,000, and Thurrock council lost the eternal flame from the East Tilbury war memorial. The cost of replacement was so great that a fibreglass replica had to be made.

More worryingly, I have uncovered an increasing problem of thieves targeting our key infrastructure networks. The most recent police estimate of the cost of such thefts to communication, energy, transport and water industries is £770 million per annum. This year alone has seen more than 5,000 reported thefts from the railway, gas and electricity networks. Such thefts have resulted not only in the loss of services to vulnerable customers, but have included attacks on 999 services and communication services that are provided to the various police forces and military establishments.

In the past six months, BT has seen more than 900 attacks on its network, which has affected more than 100,000 customers. It has lost more than £5 million in the past year, and on current trends, it looks as if it will lose £6 million in the current financial year. In one attack in Scotland last week, 32 tonnes of copper cable were stolen in a single night. Energy company E.ON faces similar problems. Last year, substation theft cost the company £1.3 million, and by the end of May it had already seen 175 reported incidents. The figures speak for themselves. It is not just the monetary cost that is worrying, but the danger in which the thieves are putting both themselves and the engineers who work for companies such as BT and E.ON, through their illegal activities.

Today, Gwent police superintendent Harry Gamlin, head of the taskforce that deals with metal theft in Wales, said that the problem is now so bad that it threatens to “fracture social cohesion.” He added:

“There is a common perception of metal thieves being loveable rogues, old-man-Steptoe-type characters...People need to wake up to the fact that they are in fact highly organised and skilled gangs of criminals who more than likely have links to other forms of serious and organised crime.”

The taskforce in Wales is a welcome step, but tougher laws are needed.

It is not just the seasonal “wrong type of snow” and leaves on the track that are holding up our train network: commuters now have to contend with the regular misery of year-round signalling thefts. Network Rail tells me that commuters and operators have lost 19,417 hours in delays since 2006-07. Overall, it estimates that it has spent £35 million since then on metal theft-related crime. That includes £25 million of schedule 8 costs. That is £25 million that could have been spent on improving the railway network that has been diverted to essential maintenance because of metal theft alone.

I travel to Westminster from Sandwell and Dudley station every week. Between September 2009 and this October there have been five serious incidents of cable theft in the Tipton area alone and I have been late for meetings and nearly missed votes. These incidents in Tipton caused £485,000 worth of damage to the rail network causing hundreds of hours of delays for commuters. I find these figures staggering. Across the whole of the west midlands in the last 18 months there have been 52 cable thefts on the railway causing 1,500 trains to be cancelled. I am told by Network Rail that the route between London and Scotland up the east coast is by the far the worst affected, especially in Yorkshire and the north-east. That route has recorded days on which up to 40 thefts have taken place. Commuters and British business are the people who are really losing out as metal theft soars.

I have unearthed other examples that are shocking in their scale and audacity. There are the thieves who cut a heavy copper cable used to link an MRI scanner to the main electricity supply in Northamptonshire. Thieves stole cable twice in a week meaning 70 patients had to have their diagnostic appointments rearranged. Lives could have been lost. I have been told of the sick thieves who stole two brass plaques listing the names of the Blackley men who fell during the first world war in Manchester. The community had to unite to make sure that the 215 war heroes could be honoured on Remembrance Sunday.

Just as sickening was Linda Smith’s story. Linda contacted me to tell me about the theft of metal containers for holding flowers from graves from Abney park in Stoke Newington. The Minister may not be aware that the Ecclesiastical Insurance Group, the leading church insurers, report that they have received more than 7,000 claims for metal theft since the start of 2007 at an estimated total cost of £23 million.

Councillor David Sheard of Kirklees council has been in touch. He told me about the £18,000 worth of litter bins that had been stolen from the council in a single week. The case of Tom Berge who escaped a jail sentence for stealing lead worth £100,000 from some of the most historic properties in Sutton in Croydon has also been brought to my attention. He used Google Earth to identify listed buildings, churches and schools that he could target. In Sandwell, two people have already lost their lives trying to steal cabling from a disused factory after an explosion.

Five-year-old Keanu Jones of Dudley road in Tipton could so nearly have been the third life lost last week. He fell down an exposed drain when out with his mum. The cover had been stolen. It left him shaken and covered in bruises. Keanu’s case is important. It highlights the fact that thieves do not just target high-value, precious and commodity metals. The resale value of what can be stolen can often be minimal. To quote Tony Glover, spokesman of the Energy Networks Association:

“It is pathetic, quite frankly. As a crime it is sometimes as little as £5, £10 or £20… But its impact is enormous—it’s almost like an act of vandalism. Some of our equipment is oil-insulated and a £5 brass valve—that’s all they stole— resulted in 30,000 litres of oil coming out of some equipment.”

Just to illustrate the point, this week I was visited by my constituent Ravi Kumar who told me that thieves had stolen his old, rusty metal table from his front garden. Ravi had put the table out for collection by Sandwell council. Thieves looking to make a quick cash return made off with the table before the council van arrived. There is a black market price list for this stuff—£10 for Ravi’s table, £20 for a stolen manhole cover, £80 for a catalytic converter. These items are being stolen because they are easy prey to thieves to sell on to rogue scrap metal dealers.

More worryingly, West Midlands police and the Black Country chamber of commerce continue to alert me to the rise in the number of burglary dwelling offences across the country in which the offenders are stealing the victim’s gold or silver jewellery. There is currently no legislation covering the buying and selling of gold and silver by independent retailers, which are becoming increasingly common in most towns and cities. Despite some franchises still following good practice, in which no transaction can take place without a series of identity checks, some of the rogues are beginning to make an impact on communities.

I would like to see two minor changes to the law to tackle the problems that I have outlined. One change would deal with commodity metals such as copper, lead and brass, and the second change would deal with precious metals such as gold and silver. The Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 needs to be made fit for the modern age. It is outdated; it is not well understood, and, in its current form, it simply fails in its purpose.

Many hon. Members may not be aware of the legislation to which I refer. As it stands, the Act requires dealers to keep a simple book detailing all scrap metal received at the place of purchase. The book must also show that all scrap metal is either processed at or dispatched from that place. That is inadequate.

In the Sandwell area, and across the country, I repeatedly hear stories of some unscrupulous scrap metal dealers opening as early as 5 am. Cash in hand is given to the seller, and it is not unusual for them to turn up with a wheelie bin full of manhole covers. The unscrupulous scrap metal dealer, who does not check too closely where the metal has come from or who the seller is, then sells it on to legitimate dealers, who have no idea that they are buying stolen metal. In some cases, the metal is exported to the far east due to global demand. Some dealers will let sellers get away with giving their name as Joe Bloggs or Mr Smith. Scrap metal is big business, and the record keeping among rogue dealers can be very poor or even non-existent. One police force has told me that records kept by metal merchants do not always provide them with a good enough audit trail to track back such thieves, and I know police forces across the country feel the same.

Although I appreciate that recent dialogue between the British Metals Recycling Association and ACPO has resulted in the development of a code of practice, which includes measures that go beyond those prescribed by the 1964 Act—including requesting proof of identity, limits on cash payments and guidance on best practice for deploying CCTV—I have real doubts that those go far enough. Unscrupulous metal dealers have already made it clear that they are unwilling to abide by good practice, and a voluntary code is extremely unlikely to change the mindsets of those people in the industry. My preferred option would be to make scrap metal dealers operate under a cashless system. If thieves cannot make a quick profit, the incentive to steal in the first place would be dramatically reduced. I draw the Minister’s attention to the state of Oregon, which did that in 2009. All the signs from Oregon suggest that the beefed-up regulations have caused a drop in the number of people looking to sell stolen materials. Many police forces are also seeking powers to close down suspected rogue dealers on the spot, and they want metal users to consider embossing their metal to make it less attractive to steal. I hope that the Minister will seek ways to make that happen.

It strikes me that there is a need for precious metals, such as gold and silver, to be brought within the scope of the 1964 Act. We cannot allow the situation to continue in which there is no legislation covering the buying and selling of such metals. The Black Country chamber of commerce tells me that it would like precious metal dealers to register their business with the local authority every three years; it would like to see registered dealers required to keep a written record at each precious metal store of all items received, processed and dispatched from that store; and it would like deeper proof of identity from those who sell precious metals. I support the Black Country chamber of commerce in its call, and I hope that the Minister will take its suggestions seriously.

Based on new figures that I have made public today, I believe that the Government should arrange for data on metal theft to be better collected and to be presented in a clearer format. The failures of local authorities and police forces to accurately chronicle every incident make contributions to public policy and finding solutions on this subject more difficult for Ministers and stakeholders. It is time for the courts to get tough. The Home Office should ask the Ministry of Justice to issue specific guidance on metal theft to magistrates, as the Ministry of Justice did with home repossessions.

Analysts tell me that they expect a 62% rise in copper prices over the next few years. Coupled with the Government’s announced cuts to policing budgets and the fact that the future budget of the British Transport police is in doubt, that could see a further rise in metal thefts. If the UK adopted a cashless approach to scrap metal sales, I am certain that thieves would be deterred. There would simply be no quick cash incentive for them to steal commodity metals and there would be a proper audit trail. I hope that the Minister will look seriously at the proposals of the Black Country chamber of commerce on precious metals. Metal thieves erode UK resilience. They undermine communities and threaten businesses. They have to be stopped.

[The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair)]

Order. This is a short Adjournment debate. Does the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), have the permission of the Minister and the hon. Gentleman to speak?

[Mr Watson]

Yes.

Phone Tapping

Lord Watson of Wyre Forest Excerpts

Monday 6th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab) (Urgent Question)]

To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will make a statement on the Metropolitan police investigation into phone hacking by the News of the World newspaper.

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

In December 2005, the Metropolitan police began an investigation focusing on alleged security breaches within telephone networks after concerns were raised by members of the royal household at Clarence house. That investigation resulted in the prosecution and conviction of the News of the World royal editor, Clive Goodman, in 2007 for unlawfully intercepting the phone messages of staff in the royal household. A private investigator, Glenn Mulcaire, was also convicted and jailed for intercepting the phones of a number of people.

That investigation has already been reviewed by the Metropolitan police, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Crown Prosecution Service, who all concluded that the investigation was proper and appropriate. The Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport also previously examined the scope and nature of the police investigation, and the previous Government updated the House on these matters in July 2009 and took no further action. Hon. Members will be aware that there have recently been allegations connected to that investigation in The New York Times.

Any police investigation is an operational matter in which Ministers have no role. I understand that the original investigation was complex and was informed by high-level legal advice. As a result of that investigation, as I have said, two individuals were successfully prosecuted. The police have made it clear that during the investigation there was early and regular consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service, so that the lines of inquiry followed were likely to produce the best evidence. The CPS had full access to all the evidence gathered, and the final indictment appropriately represented the criminality uncovered. The Metropolitan police have indicated that if there is further evidence, they will look at it. That is the right course of action, and it is right for the Government to await the outcome.

[Mr Watson]

Claim No. 1: there is no new evidence; there is. Claim No. 2: people were cleared by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee; they were not. Claim No. 3: a single, rogue reporter was responsible; he was not—the inquiry heard that a second News of the World reporter, Ross Hall, transcribed illegally hacked phone messages. He has not been interviewed by the police. He sent the now notorious e-mail to News of the World chief reporter Neville Thurlbeck, reporter No. 3, who has not been interviewed by the police. Last week, former News of the World reporter Sean Hoare testified that when he worked for the paper his bosses instructed him to hack into phones. He has not been interviewed by the police.

A fifth reporter, Sharon Marshall, confirmed to The New York Times that she witnessed phone hacking while working for the News of the World. As far as we know, she has not been interviewed by the police. Last week, News International confirmed that a sixth reporter has been suspended for alleged phone hacking. As far as we know, he has not been interviewed by the police.

John Yates said that he had interviewed many reporters. Well, who? How many people were on Mulcaire’s target lists? How many were notified that their name was on the lists? How many phone numbers, PINs and suspected computer passwords were on the lists? What other personal and private information was recovered? Most importantly, who decided, according to what criteria and on whose authority, which victims were investigated and which were not, and who was notified?

Can the Home Secretary confirm that former Prime Minister Tony Blair has formally asked Scotland Yard whether his phone was hacked into? The integrity of our democracy is under scrutiny around the world; the Home Secretary must not join the conspiracy to make it a laughing stock.

[Mrs May]

I say two things to the hon. Gentleman. First, he says that there is new evidence. As far as I can see, allegations have been made in a newspaper. The Metropolitan police have made it clear that if there is fresh evidence, they will consider it. Secondly, as Home Secretary I consider it appropriate that the Government take the view that it is for the Metropolitan police to decide what is the right course of action on an operational matter. As I said in response to the urgent question, it is appropriate for this Government to wait for the outcome.

Identity Documents Bill

Lord Watson of Wyre Forest Excerpts

Wednesday 9th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend is making a customarily amusing yet powerful contribution to the debate. He is wise to accept the mandate of the coalition Government, whereby they believe that they have a right to dismantle their version of the surveillance state. Does he agree, however, that the Bill does not remove any obligation on any Department to verify people’s identity, so there will be no less identity verification going on? If the Government really want to reduce the surveillance state, they should give citizens ownership of their data so that Departments do not continually data-share—there might be more of that as a result of the Bill—and have a transparency register that means that every occurrence of data-sharing that goes on between Departments is in the public domain so that people have the right to challenge it?

[Alan Johnson]

My hon. Friend makes a very powerful point; he has a good track record in this area. He is highlighting the real issues of civil liberties, which are not only to do with a simple identity card to prove and protect identity but a whole range of other issues that I shall come to in a moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Hemming]

When we apply for a passport, every 10 years, we provide a new photograph. I, for example, am a little bit follicly challenged, and at some stage I must recognise that.

[Mr Watson]

Shave it off then.

[John Hemming]

If I follow the hon. Gentleman’s advice and shave it off, and then do not provide a photograph for the ID register, I will pay a £1,000 fine.

It is recognised that passport photographs go out of date. That is why children’s passports do not last as long as adults’ passports. But, having applied for a passport, we do not have a duty to tell the passport office that we have moved to a new address, or that the location of a second home has changed. There will be no £1,000 fine in such circumstances. The real difference is that individual citizens are threatened with a fine of up to £1,000 if they do not inform the Government’s ID card department of such changes. It could be said that the most intrusive aspect is not the ID card itself, but the maintenance of the register and, in particular, the duty for the individual to update the register.

I think that all the other aspects have been ably dealt with. A voluntary scheme is unlikely to achieve anything in terms of preventing crime, particularly serious crime. People who are willing to die in the process of committing crime will not be frightened of a £1,000 fine for not giving a photograph of themselves to the Government. We have heard no good arguments for how ID cards and the ID database would prevent crime. What is clear is that the identity register is massively intrusive. The duty that it places on the citizen to inform the Government of every change is an extreme step, forcing people to serve the Government and make things convenient for them by providing such information. It is obvious that this is all about convenience in the provision of services. The public interest is defined as the achievement of more efficiency in providing public services. The basic point is that the Government are here to serve the citizen; the citizen is not here to serve the Government.