Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Hanham

Thursday 5th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the problem of adult social care does not rest with the local authorities alone. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has already pointed out that there is a similar responsibility on the National Health Service. If this problem had been capable of being resolved, it would have been by now. I recognise the noble Lord’s frustration coming to this Bill as a result of his work on the Dilnot commission, and I understand it fully. However, everybody here will be aware of the ongoing discussions every time you turn on the radio or television. There was another discussion last night on “Newsnight” on these serious problems, which are, at the moment, more or less intractable. The last thing I want to do is to try a light touch on this. I appreciate fully that this is a very serious matter, but so do the Government. The Government are wrestling with this, like previous Governments did. If the noble Lord was dealing with social services in 1970 and was then leader of a council, he and I at both stages were dealing with having to reduce expenditure and increase and toughen criteria.

This has long been a problem and it has gradually got worse because of the demographics and the general increase in costs. We are now against the background of an enormous deficit—which was not the responsibility of this Government but which we are having to deal with—which is not helping the situation either. As I said at Second Reading when the noble Lord, Lord Warner, brought this up, the Government—as he and others know—are committed to publishing a White Paper shortly that goes across both departments. I confirm that my department is in regular touch with the Department of Health about it. The White Paper will set out the plans to transform care and support. I recognise very clearly that this is beginning to absorb an enormous amount of public funding.

Clearly, the battle is to decide whether any personal contributions have to be made or whether there are other routes. If you are forcing people to sell their houses, you are in very difficult territory. I understand the reason the noble Lord, Lord Warner, brought this up. I am not going to accept the amendments for the reason that this is not solely a part of local government and it is certainly not a part of what we are discussing at the moment. I only add that the Government have already allocated an additional £7.2 billion over four years to adult social care, so we are not pulling back on our commitment to it. We are very much committed. We now have to wait for the White Paper. I very much hope that the noble Lord will not return to this at a further stage.

[Lord Warner]

Well, my Lords, that was all very interesting from the Minister. I suppose I thank her for it. I am not sure that I was very convinced by any of it. To get it on the record, this Government set up the Dilnot commission. They encouraged us to produce a report within 12 months, which we dutifully did. It is now 12 months since we reported, and there has not been a peep out of the Government about what they want to do. I do not mind if they do not like it, but they might have had the decency to suggest another approach that they would like. However, what we have had is silence and all the signals—from the cross-party talks and elsewhere—are that what we will get next week is a White Paper and a draft Bill that will be extraordinarily silent on the subject of money. I am a very patient sort of chap. I am very happy to wait until I see this document and what the arguments are and to consider it over the Summer Recess. I do not approach that with any great optimism. I am happy to withdraw the amendment on this particular occasion but I do not give any assurances to the Minister that I will not come back to this on Report, refreshed after the Summer Recess.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Warner and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 12th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

There is a nod from the Box. I shall have to let the noble Lord know. I said the scheme would be implemented in 2013. My noble friend Lord Attlee will retrieve that information and I will pass it on.

The noble Lord, Lord Tope, who I thank for his basically supportive speech, asked when the draft regulations for the council tax support would be published and whether we would have an opportunity to see them. The Government will publish those draft regulations for the pensioner and default schemes in July. These key regulations will be needed by local authorities and IT suppliers, which is why we published on 17 May the statements of intent on both pensioner protections and the default scheme. As I said earlier, that information is there and should be available to local authorities.

Indeed, I know of at least one local authority which has already constructed its scheme on council tax discounts on the basis of what it knows already and it is ready to announce it. So it can be done. It is not something that anyone needs to hide behind.

I am grateful that practically everyone has supported the principle of TIF. There is no doubt that with TIF 1 councils are free to put up projects and take them forward. TIF 2 is limited because of the general financial situation at the moment; we will not be able to spend a huge amount of money on it at present. However, it is there and, if it goes well, further consideration will be given to it. As noble Lords know, TIF 2 is confined basically to the core cities putting forward good projects. That is already happening and we know that there are projects which can be developed quite quickly.

My friend the noble Earl, Lord Lytton—I call him my friend because he was very nice last time and I hope that we will get the same this time—has raised with me the question of parish councils, the contributions that they make and the fact that they do not get support from the business rate. I will come back to that because I am sure it will come up in Committee. With regard to valuations and the revaluation, as the noble Earl knows, there is no intention to re-evaluate the council tax base at the moment. On the appeals process for current appeals, we are working with the Valuation Tribunal and the Ministry of Justice to establish the mix of expertise that may be necessary to hear these appeals and ensure that they are not held up.

On impact assessments, as I said earlier, we have published a statement of intent so that there is enough information available, particularly on the equality impact assessment. We are satisfied that the work is now well under way. The amendments made on Report in the Commons are intended to make it clear that there are no legal barriers to preparing for and carrying out consultation prior to Royal Assent. A number of noble Lords referred to the complexity of the scheme. It is only fair to say that the current scheme is blindingly complex, but it is anticipated that the new one will be less so once the situation is understood and we get through the legislation.

I touched on the 100% of business rate not being held by local government, and I am sure that it is something we will discuss.

I was asked about places that struggle to attract economic growth; it was a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh. Part of that will be addressed by the system of tariffs and top-ups. The base, as noble Lords have said, will be that of 2010, but it will be supported by tariffs that take funding away from local authorities with more than the base and given to those with less. There is a level playing field when all this starts, and those tariffs and top-ups will be raised by RPI.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, asked whether local authorities will be able get guidance on how to support the universal credit taper. I am pleased to confirm that the department has already published guidance on the key considerations that local authorities will need to take into account in designing a scheme that supports work incentives and the objectives of universal credit, so that is under way.

I turn now to the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, with regard to the Welsh clauses. The amendments to the Bill moved in the other place were tabled at the request of the Welsh Assembly. As we understand the process—the noble Lord may differ from me on this—the legislative consent Motion can be tabled only after the amendments have been passed and the new clauses have been laid, and they must be considered by the Assembly before the Bill completes its passage through the House. I think that the procedural arrangements sound all right but if, having thought about it, the noble Lord still does not feel they do, perhaps he will let me know as soon as possible.

The noble Lord, Lord Warner, raised the question of adult social care. I cannot answer that specifically, but as he and the House knows, adult social care is at the front of everyone’s mind. The issue is not confined to local government because it covers a number of departments. A White Paper is being completed at the moment. I think that there will be other venues in which to discuss adult social care, and in a way I hope that it does not trip up in this Bill because, while it is part of local government finance, it is not the major financial implication for local government.

[Lord Warner]

I think the Minister is trying to avoid dealing with the issue that I was trying to raise. I do not expect this Bill to solve the problems of social care funding. What I was asking for was some modelling to be done to see whether this Bill would actually make the situation worse, before the Government come forward with their plans. We do not know when they are going to come forward with their plans. What I wanted to pursue—and indeed will pursue in Committee—is whether the Government know if implementing the provisions in this Bill will actually make the funding of social care worse. That is my point, and I think we need an answer to it.

[Baroness Hanham]

We will come back to that issue in Committee, I have no doubt. My noble friend Lord Attlee and I are looking forward very much to the next stages, and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions today.