National Health Service (Procurement, Patient Choice and Competition) (No. 2) Regulations 2013

Debate between Lord Walton of Detchant and Baroness Williams of Crosby

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I shall speak briefly because I am faced with a major dilemma, not least because of the high regard in which I hold the two principal protagonists speaking on opposite sides of this debate. In this bout of unarmed combat, we have in the red corner the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of King’s Heath, a former chief executive of the National Association of Health Authorities and more recently director of a foundation trust, whose contributions to health matters in this House have been in every way outstanding. In the other corner we have the noble Earl, Lord Howe, who, without a scientific background or training, has demonstrated in opposition and in government a most extraordinary breadth of knowledge, interest and capability, invariably tackling issues relevant to health with courtesy, knowledge and authority.

I have received a veritable torrent of correspondence from organisations and individuals, many of whom I respect and know personally. These organisations include at least three royal colleges and the BMA, of which I have the honour to be a past president. Almost all of these letters have suggested that these regulations would result in compelling commissioners to put all health service activity out to tender—in other words, they would result, as has been suggested, in the ultimate privatisation of the entire National Health Service. Having studied these regulations with great care, I find it exceptionally difficult to see how they could conceivably come to that conclusion.

I am a firm believer in and supporter of the NHS, in which I am proud to have spent the greater part of my professional life. If I felt that that case had been made and if I felt that the regulations would result in privatisation of the NHS, I would unhesitatingly vote for their annulment. But having studied the regulations, I do not believe that that is the case. I have never made any secret of the fact that I believe that a component of contribution by the private sector in the NHS, properly considered, controlled and approved by Monitor, can make a very important contribution to healthcare if it is in the interest of patients. I am satisfied from the debates we had during the passage of the Health and Social Care Act that there is an obligation on any private provider contributing to NHS services to maintain, approve and provide all the facilities that the NHS already provides for education and training of healthcare professionals and contributing to research. I am satisfied that that remains the case. Paragraph 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum to these regulations says:

“Regulation 5 provides for commissioners to award a new contract without a competition where there is only one capable provider. There has been no change in policy from the requirements of the Principles and Rules for Cooperation and Competition and the supporting procurement guidance”,

guidance which was established under the previous Labour Government. I find that immensely reassuring. Paragraph 7.6 says:

“The 2012 Act has established Monitor as an independent regulator … with a duty to protect and promote the interests of people who use health care services. Part 3 of the Regulations provides for Monitor to investigate potential breaches of the requirements and to take action to ensure that patients’ interests are protected”.

I could say very much more but I am satisfied, after the most earnest and careful consideration, that these regulations do not produce the prospect of privatisation of the NHS.

I am involved with many medical charities and I learn also that the role of charities can be enhanced. They can under these regulations make more contributions than they already do to the work of the NHS. For these reasons I strongly support the regulations.

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, it is for me a great privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant He made an astonishingly wise and helpful contribution to debates in this House on the Health and Social Care Act. I found myself in exactly the same position as he was in. I have a total commitment to the National Health Service. That has not changed in any way. In my whole life none of my family has ever used any other medical service. But I cannot find in the most careful reading of the regulations and our long debate on these two sets of regulations anything that bears out the widely spread view—extensively spread by the social networks—that this is all about bringing to an end the National Health Service as a public service and introducing overall privatisation.

I will quickly say three things. First, the Liberal Democrats intervened immediately when we saw the first set of regulations, laid on 11 February and promulgated in the House on 13 February. We did not like them at all. The day that the House came back, my noble friends Lady Jolly and Lord Clement-Jones were at the Minister’s door, asking him to see us that same day. Although there were widespread press discussions about how the campaigners and the Opposition had essentially stopped the regulations, it was not true. At the end of that discussion on 25 February, the day that the House came back, the Minister had listened closely to everything that we had to say and agreed at the end that the regulations could be misunderstood, and that there was therefore a strong case for looking again at making them clearer.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Walton of Detchant and Baroness Williams of Crosby

Monday 27th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

My Lords, perhaps I may briefly intervene in the debate on this extremely important amendment. In countries like the United States, where there is no effective health system for those who cannot afford very substantial sums of money, emergency admission has become the last resort for such people. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is right but we should take it one stage further. We know, from very recent reports on the difference between the likelihood of survival in an emergency situation between weekdays and the weekend, that out-of-hours provision is of substantially lower quality than that provided by regular doctors in a good hospital. This is very serious. One of the great mistakes made in the last contract for general practitioners was the almost complete transfer of out-of-hours work to private agencies which did not demand the same standards in respect of doctors, ranging from their ability to speak different languages through to experience of medical treatment. In consequence, we now have a troubling kind of medical roulette where a great deal depends on whether you get ill on Thursday or on Friday. The statistics are quite frightening, showing not a narrow but a very substantial difference.

Before the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, comes in—if he does—and before the Minister responds, I would like to raise two points. The first is about the degree to which the noble Lord believes we can begin to re-establish out of hours work to a higher level of quality broadly equivalent to that offered by general practitioners and other medical staff to patients who conveniently fall ill on Monday through Friday but not later or after that. Secondly, what does the Minister feel about the dependence of some groups in our community on emergency services, not because they want to use them but because they are not familiar with ways to establish their proper relationship with people who could look after them in difficult conditions? This goes back to one of the particular concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, which is the impact of alcoholism on emergency entry. This is not just another amendment; it is a crucial one which points to a very troubling discrepancy which could grow worse if we do not succeed in addressing it.

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, it would be difficult to overstress the crucial importance of this issue, which has been a matter of grave concern to the specialist medical community. People with less common conditions often require specialist services for treatment unavailable through generic NHS support. At Question Time today, I posed a Question to the Minister about the report of the National Audit Committee which had demonstrated the serious inequalities of neurological services throughout the United Kingdom. People with neurological conditions rely not only on skilled neurologists but on a specialist multi-disciplinary team of nurses, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and others to maximise their independence and quality of life. The Bill proposes that these services be commissioned at a local level by clinical commissioning groups which will be able to determine the size of the population for which they have responsibility and which, as matters stand, will have no duty to collaborate with other clinical commissioning groups in the commissioning of services. Grave anxieties have been expressed by the Rare Disease Consortium and by the Neurological Alliance, which is the only collective voice for more than 70 national and regional brain, spine and neuromuscular organisations working together to make life better for 8 million children, young people and adults in England with a neurological condition.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Walton of Detchant and Baroness Williams of Crosby

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Crosby]

I thank the Minister. I will spend many happy hours working my way through every possible legal complexity and a number of different Bills. I am grateful for her explanation.

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

Before the Minister writes to the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, with a definition of emergency, could she clarify whether we are talking in this Bill about medical emergencies, such as serious epidemics, or whether we are also talking about terrorist attacks, floods and natural disasters, all of which may require the deployment of medical resources? It is important that that should be clarified.