European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 15th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I bring a Scottish voice in support of the arguments that have been advanced in the amendments from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, and by other noble Lords who have spoken. These are important points, not only as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has just said, for maintenance of the union but also for many practical reasons. As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, no one disputes that the negotiation of an international treaty is a matter devolved to the United Kingdom Government. However, we have to recognise that much of the subject matter of many of these agreements will fall to the devolved Administrations to implement; it will be in areas of devolved competence. Therefore, it is important that there be proper engagement with the devolved Administrations in reaching these agreements, not only to ensure a community of interest within these islands but to give those with whom we are negotiating some reassurance that what they are negotiating will be implemented properly by the various devolved Administrations. If the people from the devolved Administrations are not present, something may be missing in the reassurances they are seeking.

In paragraph 114 of the report published yesterday by the Constitution Committee—of which I am a member—the committee reiterated what it said in its report last year on the parliamentary scrutiny of treaties:

“As part of its treaty-making after the UK leaves the European Union, the UK Government must engage effectively with the devolved institutions on treaties that involve areas of devolved competence … The UK Government will need to consult the devolved governments about their interests when opening negotiations, not just to respect the competences of those governments but also in acknowledgement of the important role devolved administrations may play in the implementation of new international obligations”.


In paragraph 115, the Constitution Committee recommends that

“the Government set out before the Bill’s report stage what its process for consultation and engagement with Parliament and with the devolved authorities will be in respect of the future relationship negotiations with the European Union”.

Amendment 29 goes further than that and wants to put it in the Bill; that is probably worth while.

Some noble Lords will recall that, when the Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations was established—I think, in the autumn of 2016—great commitments were made about the intention of the United Kingdom Government to engage at every step of the way in the negotiations to get a withdrawal agreement. Yet we know that, for many months, that Joint Ministerial Committee never even met. This is not the place to go into why it did not meet, but good intentions were not delivered on. We know that there were good intentions. In replying to the debate on the gracious Speech last Wednesday, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, said the following in response to a similar point that I and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, made then:

“the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, asked about the representation of the devolved Administrations in negotiations on our future relationship. We recognise the need for their close involvement in negotiations on our future relationship with the EU in order to deliver a satisfactory outcome”.—[Official Report, 8/1/20; col. 289.]

That was a statement of intent with which I could have no dispute, but we want more: we want how it will work in practice to be fleshed out. Given that the Joint Committee on EU Negotiations has not had a happy track record—it improved as time went on—many of us would feel more reassured if it was on the face of the Bill.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Is it not difficult to legislate for a committee to meet more often when it does not meet often enough?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, the amendment would establish that it should meet, and some timescales are set down. My concern relates to good intentions. No one disputes the good intentions for the Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations when established, but they were not carried through in practice. When the Minister comes to reply—I am not sure which Minister it will be—I am sure that we will be told of good intentions. We want to ensure that good intentions are delivered on.

Brexit

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Wednesday 2nd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, is putting words in my mouth. I did not say anything improper. I just said that, considering the judiciary is completely divided on this issue, it was remarkable that all 11 members of the Supreme Court reached the same conclusion. The issue at heart was whether the business of proroguing Parliament was judiciary. The previous court had said it was not judiciary and the Supreme Court said it was. What has actually happened—

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

No. I have given way to so many people, and we are always being told that we cannot go beyond six minutes.

As everybody will know, the judgment of the Supreme Court alluded to the fact that a number of judgments had been made that had political connotations. This is a step much further: the Supreme Court making a political decision. What has the judgment that we could not prorogue Parliament actually resulted in? We have sat for another eight days while we go over all the old ground. One of the reasons we are where we are now is that Parliament is incapable of reaching any conclusion on what it should actually do about leaving the EU. Have we advanced any further by the fact that we have sat for longer? No, we have not. Have the Government been held to account? Well, on the margin, I suppose. Has it really made any difference to anything? No, it has not—for the simple reason that nothing is actually going to happen until the EU Council meets on 17-18 October. After that, of course, it will be decided whether the proposals we have put forward are acceptable, whether there is a deal to be put to Parliament and so forth. It is after the Queen’s Speech that the Government will have to be held to account, and very little has been achieved by Parliament sitting over all these extra days.

The real problem is that if the Supreme Court says, “We’re going to get into the business of not just interpreting but actually making the law, and we’re going to make political decisions when we do that”, as sure as night follows day, Parliament will say, “If the judges are going to make these political decisions, they must be appointed by Parliament”. That is what will happen if we go on down this road. What will happen? A Select Committee in the House of Commons will interview candidates for the Supreme Court. It will ask them about their political views: which way they voted in the last election, what their views are on social matters such as—

Scotland: Smith Commission

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Thursday 27th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My noble friend makes an interesting point, which I am sure my colleagues in the Treasury will note. I recall considering APD during the Calman commission. First, there is no guarantee. My noble friend says that the current policy of the Scottish Government is to abolish it or change the rates, but if they reduce one tax, they have to find the money for some of their spending commitments, which are not small, somewhere else. Therefore, I do not think we can necessarily be sure how that power, when devolved, will be used. Many other factors will come into a passenger’s choice of airport other than APD. If one was travelling, let us say, from Hull, I am not sure that one would want to take on the extra journey to go to Edinburgh, bypassing Newcastle, to start a journey. APD is only one part of a passenger’s choice.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, if my noble friend Lord Maclennan is right and this is the first step towards devolution—I must say that I thought that we had had a few already and that there are more to come—are not those steps all a ratchet turning in one direction, which is towards the independence of Scotland? Secondly, if we are granting the right to raise income tax in Scotland and, incidentally, corporation tax in Northern Ireland, does that not completely undermine the single currency of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I do not believe that this is a one-way street to independence—far from it. The majority of the Scottish people on 18 September clearly indicated that they wanted to be part of the United Kingdom. The terms of reference of the Smith commission were that these proposals should be consistent with the integrity of the United Kingdom. The principles agreed by members of the commission were that the proposals had to be in the context of a United Kingdom.

That leads into the second part of my noble friend’s question. With regard to Scotland’s fiscal framework and borrowing powers, the report states:

“Borrowing powers should be set within an overall Scottish fiscal framework and subject to fiscal rules agreed by the Scottish and UK Governments based on clear economic principles, supporting evidence and thorough assessment of the relevant economic situation”.

Therefore, considerable tax powers, including on income tax, the definition of a taxpayer, personal allowances, taxation of savings and investment income, will all still be the responsibility of the United Kingdom Parliament. The proposals have to be considered in the context of the remit that was given: to be consistent with maintaining our United Kingdom.

Succession to the Crown Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Wednesday 13th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, when we come to a later amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, I will be able to explain what the position is in the different realms. It would require agreement among the other 15 realms. I will explain this in detail when we come to a later amendment. I am not introducing a parliamentary procedure. As I have indicated, New Zealand is, and it already has a Bill before its Parliament with the number six in it. It would therefore require agreement; it would not necessarily require a parliamentary process. It is up to each individual realm to decide what to do, and some of them do not believe that they need a parliamentary process.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Are we simply saying that an exchange of e-mails would be quite adequate?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I am sure that if it was just that, it would be simpler. Certainly, the experience of reaching agreement was far more painstaking and more work was put into it than a simple exchange of e-mails. I know that when the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, who participated in some of our earlier debates, worked in the previous Administration in No. 10 Downing Street, this was one of his responsibilities when the previous Prime Minister was seeking to get agreement. I know how much effort was put into getting the agreement at Perth, and subsequently into getting the agreement on this provision. It is not, therefore, as simple as an exchange of e-mails.

Wales: Organ Donation

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord. Indeed, there were two reports in 2008 from the organ donation task force. One dealt with the infrastructure arrangements to which I referred, and the other looked at presumed consent. The latter report concluded that the case was not made at the present time to move to a system of presumed consent, but rather emphasised the importance of the infrastructure arrangements and raising the profile. To date I think that has borne some fruit.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Can my noble friend tell me how long the Welsh Assembly has been a Government? Did this follow the referendum that transferred further powers from Westminster to Wales? Are we not witnessing a ratchet of powers being transferred to both Wales and Scotland, which will inevitably lead to them both becoming independent?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, given that, during the association that I have had as a spokesman in your Lordships' House for the Wales Office, the acronym WAG for Welsh Assembly Government has been one that I am familiar with, it is not something that has happened since the referendum.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Tuesday 8th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I will not go down the road of wondering who the timescale was intended to suit. It is clear that Boundary Commissions have discretion in their proceedings. The comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, is very fair. We want to make sure that the time is best used and that people whose work patterns do not necessarily fit a 10.30 am to 3.30 pm programme have the opportunity to exercise their discretion, and that people have the maximum number of opportunities to contribute.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Perhaps my noble and learned friend would agree that the answer to this is not to have members of the legal profession chairing the inquiries.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My noble friend perhaps articulated the point that I was hinting at.

The government amendments complete the task of putting the public at the heart of the process, and of delivering effective public engagement with a clear but proportionate role for political parties. The complementary amendment on a counter-representations stage, suggested in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, will allow for the effective scrutiny of the arguments and proposals of others. People who, with the best will in the world, may not be able to attend a public hearing will still be able to make counterproposals in writing.

Also, importantly, this will be achieved on a timescale that will allow for up-to-date boundaries to be in place by the 2015 general election, and during each Parliament thereafter. This will give effect to a key principle underpinning the Bill: fair and equally weighted votes throughout the UK. The amendments respond to the spirit that has been expressed in many of our debates about the public having the opportunity to have their say, without adopting an unduly legalistic view that can exclude the public. I beg to move the amendment standing in the name of my noble friend Lord McNally.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Is my noble and learned friend intending that there should be a letter-writing campaign for every constituency in the country, to preserve it as it is?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Perhaps the Royal Mail might find that useful for their coffers, but I am not sure whether that is going to happen. Perhaps I might draw it to the Committee’s attention that the Isle of Wight shares its police force with Hampshire and that, in other areas, the island is already making the most of its links with the mainland. On 28 October last, the Government approved a bid to create a Solent local enterprise partnership covering the economic area of south Hampshire and the Isle of Wight. Indeed, one of the expectations for successful bids was whether the geography proposed represented a reasonable, natural and economic geography. I am confident that an MP would be able to represent a constituency that meets those criteria, such as in a cross-Solent seat. The island has indicated a willingness to develop its long-term interests, where appropriate, in conjunction with its mainland neighbours.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Lord Hamilton of Epsom

Monday 13th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I think that I have explained this. It has been a matter of some debate, but nevertheless it was expected that the elections to the Scottish Parliament would be held on 5 May 2011. It was expected that the elections to the Welsh Assembly would also be held on that day. Therefore, given that that was the date originally set out in the Bill as it came to the House prior to amendment, it makes sense to combine them. But before I sit down I will try to set out why the terms are somewhat different for the polls that will be taking place in England on that date. It could be that a particular date has not yet been set for a particular local referendum. That could be a possible explanation, but before I conclude, I hope there may be some explanation as to why the terminology is somewhat different.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Could my noble and learned friend address the whole issue of confusion? On 5 May, two important issues are going to be debated with the voters. One is who gets elected to all these local bodies, the Scottish Parliament and so forth, and the other is the question of the referendum on the alternative vote. But as we have discovered already, the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, may campaign in favour of the alternative vote and in favour of a Labour candidate. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, will campaign in favour of a Labour candidate and against the alternative vote. Is this not going to create confusion among the electors? Even on the Conservative Benches, if we look hard enough we may find someone here who is in favour of the alternative vote. I do not know who it is, but if we look hard enough, perhaps we will find somebody. They would ask voters to be in favour of the alternative vote in the referendum while at the same time supporting a Conservative candidate, while the overwhelming number of Conservatives would probably ask voters to vote against the alternative vote and in favour of the Conservative candidate.

These are two important issues. Is there not a very strong argument to consider them on separate days so that they can be debated properly and separately? They will not then be mixed up in the way that they are due to be at the moment.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

In reply to my noble friend, these issues were rehearsed when considering a specific amendment not to have the referendum on 5 May next year. The amendment was defeated by 210 votes to 166. I do not doubt for a moment that there will be a campaign on the yes and the no sides for change to the alternative vote and that people will also be campaigning on the local elections. I do not believe that that will confuse the voters. There will be a clear question on what system of elections they want for the other place in the future and there will be clear questions on who they want to elect to the local council, the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly. While I suspect that the co-operation between parties may not be as cordial as it might otherwise be, as we have already seen embryonically, various people across the parties are coming together to mount joint campaigns for the yes or the no vote. It is rather a sad reflection on our politics that people who want to come together to argue a particular case for a future voting system cannot do that and campaign for a local candidate of their own party at the same time.