Western Balkans Summit

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Baroness Goldie

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, the Western Balkans Summit will be a demonstration of the Government’s long-standing commitment to the region and to European security. The summit will focus on three areas: first, regional security, where we hope to increase co-operation against common threats, including corruption and organised crime; secondly, economic stability, to improve the business environment, entrepreneurship and digital skills; and, thirdly, political co-operation, to help the region overcome legacy issues stemming from the conflicts of the 1990s.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, next week sees not only the Western Balkans Summit but the 23rd anniversary of the Srebrenica genocide. Does the Minister consider it wholly unacceptable, and a barrier to lasting peace and reconciliation, that there are people, possibly some who may even attend the summit, who still deny that genocide? How do the Government intend to challenge those who are vocal in their denial?

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, we are clear that the Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide; indeed, we make that clear in our engagement in the region. We will be working with leaders from the region to address legacy issues from the conflicts of the 1990s in the context of a summit, including by supporting accountability for war crimes. The noble and learned Lord will aware that the International Criminal Tribunal and its successor, the International Residual Mechanism for Criminal Tribunals, have played an important role in holding to account those responsible for serious violations of international humanitarian law in the region, including at Srebrenica. We support those efforts.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Baroness Goldie

Report: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to move this group of amendments as the final piece—to use the analogy of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths—of the devolution jigsaw puzzle in this Bill. The amendments in this group all relate, in different ways, to the scrutiny that the devolved legislatures will apply to the delegated powers for devolved Ministers in Schedules 2 and 4 to the Bill.

It is right that in conferring powers on devolved Ministers, the Bill should also provide for how they will be scrutinised. It would be irresponsible not to do that. We cannot confer powers and then make no provision for legislative scrutiny whatever. However, the Government recognise that the scrutiny of powers is ultimately a question for the legislature undertaking that scrutiny and the Administration being scrutinised. That is why the Bill consciously preserves the competence of the devolved legislatures, under the respective devolution statutes, to amend those parts of the Bill that make provision for scrutiny of devolved delegated powers. It is why we have sought the views of the legislatures and the devolved Administrations on the appropriate scrutiny arrangements, and these amendments reflect that engagement.

Amendments 69D, 72ZC, 78C and 115A allow for the “made affirmative” urgent scrutiny procedure to be used by devolved Ministers making regulations under their Schedule 2 powers. This was not included in the Bill as originally drafted because it is not a standard procedure in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. However, we have confirmed with the devolved institutions that this procedure is acceptable and that it should be available to devolved Ministers for the same reasons of urgency as it will be available to UK Ministers. These amendments will achieve that.

Amendments 69C, 70C and 77E provide for the “sifting committee” procedure to apply for negative procedure instruments laid by Welsh Ministers under their Schedule 2 powers. The National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government have both confirmed that this procedure should apply to the Welsh Ministers. These amendments would therefore apply the same procedure as currently applies in the Bill to UK Ministers.

Noble Lords will appreciate that there are very specific arrangements for committees in the Northern Ireland Assembly and this relates to the structures of power-sharing within the Northern Ireland devolution settlement. In that context it would not be appropriate for this procedure to apply, so we have not included it in the Bill. The Scottish Government have informed us that they and the Scottish Parliament wish to apply some form of sifting arrangement to the Schedule 2 power. However, their intention is to undertake this by means of their own legislation. As I have said, the Bill preserves the competence of the Scottish Parliament to legislate on this matter.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I want to clarify what the Minister has just said. When she said that the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament wish to do it by their own legislation, is that their Continuity Bill, which is currently before the Supreme Court? If it is, what happens if the Supreme Court strikes it down, or maybe some other piece of legislation they bring forward?

[Baroness Goldie]

That is a reference to this Bill preserving the competence of the Scottish Parliament to legislate on that matter. I understand that it would have to make legislation within the competence of the Parliament. As the noble and learned Lord will be aware, the UK Government question the competence of the continuity legislation. That, therefore, as far as I am aware, is a completely separate issue and not what I was referring to.

Amendments 83KA, 83P, 83LA, 83MA and 112B require the Scottish Ministers to make the same explanatory statements when exercising the powers, under this Bill or when amending regulations made under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act, that UK Ministers must make when exercising their powers. I will not stray into greater detail on each of these statements, as we have debated them at length already. I will, for the sake of clarity, remind noble Lords that this obligation to explain comprises seven elements. The first is a “good reasons” statement; the second is an equalities statement; the third is a statement explaining the purpose and effect on retained EU law of the instrument; the fourth is a statement of urgency when using the made affirmative procedure; the fifth is a “good reasons” statement when using any delegated powers to amend ECA Section 2(2) regulations; the sixth is, where appropriate, a statement of the “good reasons” for creating a criminal offence, and of the sentence attached; and the final one is, where appropriate, a statement to explain why sub-delegation of the power is appropriate. As is the case where a UK Minister sub-delegates the powers, there will also be a duty on the authority to which the power is delegated to then lay before the Scottish Parliament an annual report on the exercise of the sub-delegated power, if exercised that year.

Finally, Amendment 83AC makes a straightforward provision to clarify that the duties on UK Ministers to make explanatory statements when exercising powers under the Bill will apply when exercising the Schedule 2 powers jointly with a devolved Minister. A purpose of joint exercise will allow greater scrutiny by requiring instruments to be considered by this Parliament and the relevant devolved legislature. It would not, therefore, be correct for Parliament to receive less information in relation to the instrument than it would have received if the UK Minister had been acting alone, and this amendment clarifies that this will not be the case. The duty will not extend to devolved Ministers, but the statements, as with the instrument, will be the joint product of both Administrations. The statements, in being made available to Parliament, will also therefore be available to the devolved legislatures, and the relevant devolved Administration can choose whether to lay this alongside the joint instrument.

I hope that noble Lords will recognise these amendments for what they are: they are positively the product of our continued and sincere engagement with the devolved institutions. I also hope that your Lordships will welcome the steps this takes to respond to calls in this House and in other places for greater scrutiny of delegated powers. I beg to move.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Baroness Goldie

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

My understanding is that that legislation has been enacted by the devolved Administrations for what they perceive as a necessary protection of their positions. The Government hope that we can supersede that legislation by coming to good sense around the table and hammering this out—which I think is what all parts of the United Kingdom want.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank all who have taken part in this short but important debate, and the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, for responding. I think it fair to say that in all our debates that have touched on devolution, reference has been made to the importance of securing the agreement not just of Ministers but of the devolved legislatures in Scotland and Wales. One prays for the time when it will be the case also in Northern Ireland. That was reflected in the first report of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee of this Session, which recommended that,

“the UK and Scottish governments continue their efforts to secure agreement on those clauses of the Bill which affect devolved areas of responsibility”.

It is important that we reiterate the importance of that. The Minister has indicated that the Government are seized of that, but there is no harm in reinforcing it. She referred to the import of the Sewel convention into both the Wales Act 2017 and the Scotland Act 2016. As we know from the decision in the Miller case in the Supreme Court, the convention is just that: it is a convention and does not have the force of the law. It is important that we reiterate the need to get agreement.

On the proposed sunset clause to which I spoke on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, the Minister seemed to suggest that, once the new proposals come through, this might not be necessary. I tabled a very similar amendment last week, which I had thought of attaching to the amendment brought forward by the noble Lord, Lord Callanan. When I discussed it, I was assured that it was not necessary because, due to the way in which the Bill was set out, it would not have been superseded by pre-emption even if the noble Lord’s amendment had been accepted, so such a clause is still pertinent. It is important that some time limit be set, even for establishing the frameworks. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, made some interesting and constructive proposals as to how the frameworks might be achieved. While the return of many of the powers at the so-called intersects would be pretty imminent on exit day, a number would still have to be resolved. Therefore, I encourage some positive thinking with regard to a timeframe within which that might be done. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Saudi Arabia: Executions

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Baroness Goldie

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. He clearly feels passionately about the issue—as do many. As I said earlier, the difficult issue is always to preserve balance in the conduct of international affairs and diplomatic relations. We condemn the use of the death penalty. We condemn the abuse of human rights. We have made our views clear and continue to make them clear to Saudi Arabia. There are other areas where we think it is better for the United Kingdom to engage with Saudi Arabia and have dialogue. As I said earlier in response to the noble Lord on the Cross Benches, in that way we not only perform a service to the United Kingdom but also preserve an arena of influence in order that we may try to convey to Saudi Arabia the sort of emotions and sentiments expressed this afternoon in the Chamber. Saudi Arabia will understand the potency of these feelings.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I refer to my entry in the register of interests in relation to Reprieve, the anti-death penalty charity. In a recent speech to the Gulf Cooperation Council, the Prime Minister spoke about the rules-based order. Would the Minister accept that Saudi Arabia’s use of torture to extract false confessions and execution of juvenile offenders—if it were to do so—would put it outside the rules-based order? Given the Prime Minister’s recent speech, will the Minister convey to her that this House thinks that she should follow the example of her predecessor, David Cameron, and make an intervention at prime ministerial level?

[Baroness Goldie]

As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, will be aware, the United Kingdom Government utterly condemn torture. Again, we have been clear and articulate in saying that. The Prime Minister discussed human rights during her visit to Saudi Arabia in April this year. As I indicated in my response to the initial Question, the right honourable Alistair Burt, the Minister in this area, has made clear directly to the Saudi Arabian ambassador our profound concerns about these recent reports and has represented our profound anxiety about the possibility of the use of the death penalty. We continue to make these representations in the most robust and clamant way that we can.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Debate between Lord Wallace of Tankerness and Baroness Goldie

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 16th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions, which have certainly provoked thought. The amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, to include data on attainment and the transparency duty raises an interesting and important point. For example, there is a difference between the proportion of white students and BME students obtaining a First or a 2:1. Another aspect of that was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill. That is why we asked the Director of Fair Access to look at unexplained differences in degree attainment in our most recent guidance. While we know the sector takes this issue seriously and has acted, problems persist. We will reflect on the noble and learned Lord’s amendment, which raises a significant point.

Amendments 111, 112 and 117 would mean that all eight of the protected characteristics to which the public sector equality duty under the Equality Act 2010 refers would be included in the transparency duty. This would expand it considerably to include age, disability, gender, gender reassignment, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief and sexual orientation. The transparency duty is focused on those characteristics where the greatest impact can be achieved through greater transparency and where comparable and robust data are available. Such data are not currently available for all the protected characteristics. The Equality Challenge Unit has shown that information on religion and belief, sexual orientation and gender reassignment was unknown for more than half of all students in higher education. With such low returns, comparing institutions using such data as are there would be both unreliable and unfair.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, raised the important issue of disability. That will be extensively covered under the following group of amendments at Amendment 110A and, with his leave, I will deal with that issue specifically in the next group of amendments.

Under the transparency duty, gender, ethnicity and socioeconomic background are captured. Universities may voluntarily publish further information if they wish. Again we have been mindful of the need to be proportionate when making this new legislation.

There is also a risk that by including protected characteristics, the transparency duty confusingly begins to resemble aspects of the existing public sector equality duty. Institutions may operate under the misapprehension that by complying with the transparency duty, they have met the requirements of the public sector equality duty. That would not be the case because the PSED is a vital policy, underpinned by the Equality Act, and requires institutions to publish information to show their compliance with the Equality Act. In addition, it requires institutions to publish equality objectives to demonstrate that they have consciously considered the aims of the PSED as part of their decision-making processes.

The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, raised a very important and significant question: are English higher education providers public sector bodies? I know that the noble Baroness, earlier in our consideration of the Bill, asked about the definition of “English higher education providers”. I would be very happy to respond to her on the additional question on higher education providers as public sector bodies when we write to her in response to her first question. I hope she will find that acceptable.

The transparency duty, in contrast to the public sector equality duty, is deliberately discrete and narrowly focused on widening access to higher education by shining a spotlight on universities’ admissions records. These two duties are designed to be complementary. We expect the sector to comply with both duties wherever relevant. This will be made clear in guidance issued on the matter by the OfS.

I turn to Amendments 228 and 233. An access and participation plan is a condition of registration for those fee-capped providers charging fees above the basic fee level. That means that the OfS can apply sanctions for failure to comply with registration conditions. Let me make it clear that, in order to be approved, access and participation plans must include provision relating to equality of opportunity. Amendment 233 would have the effect of limiting efforts to widen participation through access and participation plans by reference to protected characteristics only, and this does not take into account the importance of action to support those suffering from other disadvantages, such as care leavers or people who are carers, or those with disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds entering higher education. I do not consider that there is benefit to be gained by duplicating reference to the Equality Act in this Bill, given that compliance with the Equality Act is already required by law.

On the other amendments, I assure noble Lords that we believe the Bill already delivers the policy intent behind amendments 236A and 236B. The OfS will be required, through Schedule 1, to provide an annual report covering all its functions. Given that the OfS will have a general duty covering equality of opportunity in connection with access and participation, we expect this to feature prominently in its annual report. Clause 36 allows the Secretary of State to direct the OfS to report on equality of opportunity issues if there are specific concerns.

I trust it is clear that the Government take very seriously equality of opportunity through this Bill and the duties on institutions set out by the Equality Act. In the light of my comments, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 110.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords and noble Baronesses who have taken part in this debate, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, for her reply. In the noble Baroness’s first point she indicated that she would be willing to look at the issue of attainment, and she herself echoed the points that I made about the different levels of attainment between students, particularly male students from both white and BME backgrounds. There is an issue there and I am grateful to her for agreeing to look at it.

The noble Baroness also made the point that we do not need the whole range of personal characteristics; obviously, some were more personal than others. She made the point that in trying to promote transparency there might be a limited value where information is not always readily forthcoming. That is something I obviously want to reflect on and discuss further with the Equality and Human Rights Commission. It is a personal point; I am not saying that it is a killer point.

The point that the noble Baroness did make, and it was the one that I was trying to make too, was that there was a concern that some higher education institutions may well feel that by meeting their obligations under the transparency requirements, that would somehow mean that they met the public sector equality duty. She made it very clear that that was not the case: they are two separate things. The fact that she made it clear is helpful, but I think she will recognise the point that has been made, that there is still the opportunity for confusion.

The point which the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, made about what constitutes a public body was very pertinent. Obviously, it is accepted that HEIs in England are subject to that duty under the Equality Act, and this was only to put it on a par. An interesting question is whether those which are, perhaps, coming into the market and registered abroad would be subject to the same extent of equality duties under the 2010 Act. Certainly, my amendments would take away any dubiety in that regard, but it is still a point that probably needs to bottom out. The points made by the noble Lords, Lord Willetts and Lord Kerslake, are important; I have heard them rehearsed already at previous stages. I do not think they are particularly pertinent to this set of amendments because we accept and agree that the PSED actually applies at the moment. There would not be any extension in that regard.

With respect to the second set of amendments, about the participation plan, I hear that the Minister’s point is that it might actually be limiting to go down the route of the definition that I have proposed. I certainly would not wish to limit plans brought to increase participation. Again, that is a pertinent point that I would like to reflect on. This debate has been useful, and some important issues have been raised, but in the light of the Minister’s comments, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for raising that point; it is something of which I was unaware and it seems an important matter. We will reflect not only on the comments that he has just made but on those made by others of your Lordships during the debate. I undertake to write to the noble Lord on the specific point which he raised.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The Minister spoke again about the problems of self-declaration in relation to disability and personal data, but personal data on ethnicity and gender are also self-declared. Is she saying that data in those two regards are much more reliable than they are for disability and, if so, what is the Government’s position? By how much are they more reliable? Should we not accept that it is the same principle?