English Votes for English Laws

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, there is some consensus that this issue needs to be addressed, but also an equal consensus that the mode of addressing it will lead to some very unsatisfactory outcomes. It is an example, as has been said, of a piecemeal approach to the constitution, but it is an issue to be dealt with by a constitutional convention.

In the Statement accompanying the White or Green Paper—whichever colour it was—in December 2014, the right honourable William Hague referred to the Prime Minister’s Statement on the morning after the referendum, when he said that,

“a new and fair settlement for Scotland must be accompanied by an equivalent settlement for all parts of the United Kingdom”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/12/14; col. 1265.]

I do not think that this is proper equivalence.

The point was made about the concerns that certification could bring the Speaker into the courts, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said; I do not think that people would particularly want that. Much of the work of my former department in the office of the Advocate-General was to consider when Scottish Parliament legislation was passed, whether it was within the competence of the Scotland Act, and much time was spent between officials, lawyers and my old department and Scottish Government lawyers in determining whether a legislative consent Motion was required for a particular piece of legislation. It is not easy, and it is possibly an unfair burden to put on the Speaker, however well advised he will be by lawyers, and it could lead to litigation.

As the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, it is a veto, and if a veto is going to be given to what might be described as a sub-set of the House of Commons, that is not Parliament. If it is okay for English MPs to have a veto, is it not okay for democratically elected Members of the Scottish Parliament also to have a veto—in other words, for Section 28(7) of the Scotland Act 1998 to be repealed? That leads to some very important, fundamental issues about the sovereignty of Parliament.

I do not believe that it will have no effect on your Lordships’ House. It may be that we do not need to have any Standing Orders changed here, but it will have an effect. If this House passes an amendment to a Bill, which goes to the other place and which, in a double vote, is actually approved by the House of Commons but not approved by English Members of the House of Commons, we will be in an anomalous situation where a piece of legislation has been passed by both Houses but will not be sent to the monarch for Royal Assent. That is a fundamental ABC of constitutional law.

I do not think that this has been thought through. I welcome the response from the Leader of the House to some of the important issues of concern that have been raised in this debate.

English Votes on English Laws

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Thursday 2nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement—and what a Statement. This is an issue of major constitutional significance. Action to ensure that the voice of English Members of Parliament is heard loud and clear has to be addressed. Indeed we recognise that, with the deepening of devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the need to ensure that the views of English MPs are heard is clearly important. Both the McKay commission and the former Leader of the House of Commons, William Hague, in his Command Paper reported on this issue. But what is proposed by the Government today goes far beyond what has previously been considered and reported to Parliament. These are far more wide-reaching changes, with far deeper implications, but with no proper analysis of how they will work in practice. I find some irony in the opening lines of the Statement describing the Government as both Conservative and unionist. The credibility of claims to be unionist is fading fast.

We could be forgiven for thinking that on an issue of such constitutional importance, on detail that has never even been seen, let alone considered or debated, before today, and on an issue that has such profound implications for how Parliament operates, there would be an opportunity to wisely consider legislation. Should there not be a Green Paper, a White Paper, or possibly even a Bill that would be debated in both Houses—proper effective scrutiny to ensure that any proposals not only address the fundamental principles but, equally importantly, how this could work in practice? But no; this issue, if the Government get their way, will be done and dusted within the next couple of weeks, with no consultation or any scrutinising debate in your Lordships’ House. How? This will be done merely by amending the Standing Orders of the House of Commons.

The Government have today published 20 pages of amendments to the Standing Orders of the other place. The implications of these changes are hugely significant. Given that, the noble Baroness has to address the question of why there has been no consultation or expert scrutiny outside the immediate narrow circle of the Government. Can she tell me when such constitutional proposals have been dealt with merely by amending the Standing Orders of the House of Commons? Twice in the Statement she referred to making a start on the process. This is not just a start. It will be done, dusted and finished within two weeks? With the Government’s obvious fear of any genuine scrutiny in what most of us consider would be the normal, most sensible and practical way in which to make such significant changes, the noble Baroness will have to convince your Lordships’ House that this does not have the whiff of political expediency about it.

We will all want to reflect further on the detail, given that many of the specific proposals are new and have not been considered previously. For Bills that the House of Commons Speaker certifies as England-only in their entirety, the proposals appear to be fairly clear. However, today’s Statement goes much further than that. It outlines a process of sorts where a Bill contains some proposals that are considered to be either Welsh or English. There is not time today to go into all the complexities and complications of how that would work in practice, but it is sufficient to say that there will most certainly be complexities, complications and, of course, potential for chaos. Legislation rarely divides itself neatly into geographical areas. So if the Government are no longer talking about individual Bills but apparently individual clauses in Bills, this surely creates significant scope for additional complexities—and indeed risk.

With the proposals being published only this morning, the full implications of how this will affect the work of your Lordships’ House cannot yet be fully clear. In this Chamber we press votes only when necessary. We try to effect change by working with the Government with debate, discussion and presentation of the facts. However, on issues that will be defined as English, an amendment passed by this House will be subject effectively to a double lock. Will that mean the Government will be less willing to engage on English-only issues, because in this Parliament, and generally, the other place has a majority of Conservative MPs in England, so that whatever we say or do, they could vote your Lordships’ House down?

The Statement refers to using a procedure to identify English parts of a Bill as similar to that used for certifying financial privilege. Many noble Lords will recall that Peers from across the House have had several heated exchanges over the years with the Government in recent years over their refusal to engage with amendments passed by this House and ask the Commons to reconsider—and the issue raised has been financial privilege. Does the noble Baroness have any concerns about how these proposals will affect your Lordships’ House? Unless the Government already have a blueprint or precedent of how it can be made to work in practice, should not some thought and debate have gone into these proposals?

When William Hague presented his Command Paper to Parliament, he clearly did not envisage such proposals as those being brought before us. He was clear that there were a number of serious issues to be addressed, consulted on and decisions taken. Today’s Statement bypasses any such process. Mr Hague considered how a constitutional convention could be established and the kind of issues that could be addressed. The noble Baroness would have heard in Questions today the calls from right across this breadth of your Lordships’ House on how a constitutional convention could assist the Government, Parliament and the country. Laws rushed in rarely get it right.

Finally, we have concerns at the way in which this has been announced, and that has been reflected in other measures brought before us. This has been done without consultation or apparent thought for any possible unintended consequences. It is hardly reflective of the significance of the Government’s proposals. Yesterday, I spoke in your Lordships’ House of our concerns about the Government’s approach to the Childcare Bill and our recognition of the wider implications of the Government’s approach. The Constitution Committee, even since the beginning of this Session, has described a trend since the last Parliament,

“towards the introduction of vaguely worded legislation that leaves much to the discretion of ministers”.

This, the committee states,

“increases the power of the Executive at the expense of Parliament”.

On this issue, we are told that an assessment will be conducted in 12 months’ time by the Procedure Committee in the House of Commons. But what about your Lordships’ House? Again I have to ask the noble Baroness: has she given any thought to the implications for this Chamber? Will we get any opportunity to assess any impact that it may have had on the way in which we work? We have to do better than this. If we do not do it properly, the potential risks are enormous.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. We very much welcome the fact that it is being repeated in our House, given that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said, it clearly raises wider issues that go far beyond the Standing Orders of the House of Commons.

The Statement was right to reflect on the long history of this issue, the so-called West Lothian question, and there is general agreement that we are beyond the stage where the best way to answer that question is not to ask it. There is an issue there that needs to be addressed. This is the Government's attempt to give a clear and comprehensive answer to the “English question”. The Prime Minister, when he first mentioned this on the morning after the referendum—when I very much regret that he switched mode from Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to leader of the Conservative Party—made the comparison between the position of Members of the Scottish Parliament in relation to Scottish devolved issues, and English MPs. But, of course, Members of the Scottish Parliament are elected by a system of proportional representation. I am not holding my breath in the expectation that the Government will ensure that any committee of the House of Commons will also be convened on a proportional basis. We have already seen at the outset a breakdown between the comparisons that were being made.

The Statement boldly claims:

“There will be no changes to procedures in the House of Lords”.

I echo the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Is the Leader of the House absolutely sure about that? For example, the new procedures in the Commons may well affect the overall management of the parliamentary business timetable. Ping-pong may well have to be a more measured process where an English-only or English and Welsh-only Bill, particular clauses or amendments are concerned. Will she join me, at an appropriate point, in asking the Procedure Committee of your Lordships’ House to look at any implications of the changes to the Standing Orders of the other place? In addition, when your Lordships’ House amends a hitherto English-only Bill to affect Scottish, Welsh or Northern Ireland constituents, how will the Commons deal with that when the Bill returns here?

There is also the issue of defining an English-only Bill or provision. I recall the Bill that introduced top-up tuition fees for English universities being taken through the other place. It is often held up as an example of a decision being swayed only by the votes of Scottish MPs. I was the Higher Education Minister in Scotland at the time, and I had to bring in legislation in the Scottish Parliament months later to address the consequences of that Commons vote. It is not always easy to identify a Bill with impact only in England, or only in England and Wales.

The trial period for the 2015-16 Session is welcome. Will the review then examine the provision’s success or failure? What happens if there has been only limited or no experience of its operation? The “double majority” and “English veto” introduce significant new constitutional departures, and it is important that we examine these in some detail. Of course, as the Prime Minister said, taking the comparable position—putting England in the same position as Scotland—Members of the Scottish Parliament do not have the last word if Westminster chooses to override it. Section 28(7) of the Scotland Act 1998 makes it clear that Westminster has not lost the power to legislate in regard of Scotland. However, what is being proposed here is in effect an English veto, by a Committee comprised solely of English MPs, and that is not Parliament. Parliament’s rights are being inhibited.

The question we must ask is, if what is sauce for the English goose is sauce for the Scottish gander, should the Scottish Parliament be able to veto any provision in a UK Bill that relates to devolved matters in Scotland, in the same way that this English Committee can veto any matters relating to England? When we go down that road we open up a very interesting set of issues—which may well take us toward federalism, which I would not object to. Again, however, has this been fully thought through? I hope that the Leader of the House can answer that.

The Statement refers to making a real start on the task of how, when and in what format Ministers intend to take this forward. Will there be an opportunity for this House to have a much wider debate on these issues, and in particular how they will affect proceedings in your Lordships’ House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, first, as I said in the Statement I repeated, much has been done already to devolve more power to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We in this Government firmly believe that it is now time to address this unfairness in England, which has existed for too long. The proposal that has been put forward by my right honourable friend the Leader of the Commons today for English votes for English laws is a pragmatic and proportionate solution to this issue, which is very much wanted by the people of England and which will address the unfairness they perceive. It is very important for us as a House to understand from the start that the changes to procedures that are being brought in through this measure are changes to procedures in, and only in, the House of Commons. This House’s procedures are not being changed by what is being introduced in the House of Commons.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said that what is being proposed today goes far beyond what was proposed before. I disagree with that. It is a very straightforward, pragmatic, proportionate response. We have simplified beyond what was in the Hague proposals, which were there for people to comment on. When my right honourable friend Mr Hague was still Member for Richmond and leader of the other House, he was at pains to ensure that a cross-party approach was adopted to consider how to address this issue. It is worth noting that when the Opposition in the last Parliament were invited to participate in that process, they declined to do so.

The noble Baroness also suggested that it was necessary to pursue this by legislative means and to introduce some pre-legislative scrutiny. As I say, this issue has been around for a long time: it has featured in my party’s manifestos for at least the last three elections. In the last Parliament the coalition Government asked the McKay commission to look at this issue, and it came forward with various recommendations. Therefore, there has been a long period of discussion and consultation.

The noble Baroness then made some points about amendments by the House of Lords and asked whether these would be, as she described it, subject to a double lock. I must emphasise—as I will continue to do during this debate—that the way we do our work in this House will not be affected by the new processes being introduced in the House of Commons. We will still have the same powers we have now, and we will amend Bills in the same way we do now. However, when our amendments go to the other place for the Commons to consider, there will be a certification process by the Speaker, consideration of those amendments will be done together in a single way, and then there will be a vote in the House of Commons. If the measures in question are certified as England-only or England and Wales-only, when the Commons divides and decides what to do, the Government will be required to listen to and seek the agreement of both the House of Commons as a whole and the English MPs, or the English and Welsh MPs if the measures apply to England and Wales. It is important to understand that English MPs cannot overrule the whole House, and the whole House cannot overrule English MPs.

The noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, asked whether the House of Lords should review these procedures once they have been in play for some time. As my right honourable friend the Leader of the Commons indicated in his Statement, the Commons Procedure Committee will review those procedures once the Bills that will be affected by them in this Session have received Royal Assent—therefore, in about a year’s time. Because our procedures are not affected, it would be unnecessary for our own Procedure Committee to carry out a review of these proposals in this House. However, clearly, when these proposals are in operation, if anything comes to light that we feel it is important to feed into the review process, I expect that we would want to do so.

Finally, I will address a point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace—although I speak to the whole House—who questioned whether what is being introduced for English MPs in the House of Commons via English votes for English laws is comparable to devolution in Scotland. It is vital that we are clear that this new measure ensures that the power and authority that all MPs in the House of Commons have right now as regards their role in Parliament is not diminished in any way. English MPs are being given a voice for the first time on matters that affect only their constituents, and their constituents want to see that happen. Therefore, this is not about taking power away from anybody, but about making sure that for the first time, when Parliament is considering matters that only affect English MPs who represent English constituencies, English voices are the ones that get heard, as they rightly should.

Tunisia and European Council

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement. As the news came through on Friday lunchtime, it became almost too difficult to comprehend both the magnitude and the nature of the events as they unfolded in Sousse. Families and friends on holiday, relaxing and enjoying glorious weather and local hospitality, were thrown into murder and mayhem. I do not think any of us will ever forget the heartbreaking sight of sun loungers being used to stretcher the dead and the injured. With 18 British citizens confirmed dead and the death toll of British and other nationalities likely to rise, and with others seriously injured, the horror and fear of that day will never be erased from the memories of those who have survived. As we think of the pain and distress of families trying to find and identify loved ones we can only try to understand what they must be going through.

I concur with and support the comments of thanks to all those—the FCO staff, our police and other agencies and the locals in Sousse—who are trying their best to give both the practical and the emotional support that is needed and will be needed for many for months and years to come. The Home Secretary and the Minister with responsibility for the Middle East are in Tunisia today and they will understand the scale of the problem.

I am sure that, like me, the noble Baroness was deeply affected by the interviews with holidaymakers who, while clearly traumatised and visibly upset, said that they wanted to stay on, in recognition of the support that they had from the locals, who had helped them despite their own fears and distress. I understand that the Government are not issuing advice against travelling to Tunisia, but is any advice being provided to those who are booked to go on holiday there over the coming weeks?

Obviously many Tunisians are already worried about their futures, both in terms of security and economically. I know it is early days and I welcome the fact that discussions have been held with Prime Minister Hollande and Chancellor Merkel but have there been any further discussions with the Tunisian Government? I am thinking not just about security issues but also about economic issues, which can have a huge impact on the local economy and the national economy and will raise other issues around security.

At the European Council, security and defence were rightly high on the agenda. It is a stark reminder, as we reflect on the 10th anniversary of 7/7, that this week alone there have been deadly terrorist attacks not only in Tunisia, but also in Kuwait and France. Meanwhile, the death toll in Syria and Iraq continues to rise. The Prime Minister has rightly recognised that this violence stems from an extremist ideology which hijacks and perverts the religion of Islam, and that this must be tackled at home as well as internationally. We must challenge such extremism, whatever its origins, and champion the values of peace, freedom of speech, tolerance and equality.

The noble Baroness may be aware from debates in your Lordships’ House on the then Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill that not only must our security forces and police have the resources, the numbers and the appropriate tools to be effective but action must be community-based, and all communities have to engage with government and other public bodies in a climate of trust. She will be aware that so many within the Muslim community are challenging ideological extremism and championing the values that lead to a more tolerant and peaceful society. In their considerations of the way forward, are the Government also giving further thought to how these individuals and communities can be supported in their work?

The noble Baroness will know that your Lordships’ House has been very concerned about migration, as discussed at the European Council, both in tackling the organised criminality that fuels it and the instability in north Africa and the Middle East that leads frightened and vulnerable people to risk their lives and those of their families. One of the conclusions of the European Council meeting is:

“Further to the Commission’s European Agenda on Migration, work should be taken forward on all dimensions of a comprehensive and systemic approach”.

Is she in a position today to explain what that means in practice and what action will be taken? The same document refers to,

“the reinforcement of the management of the Union’s external borders”.

What contribution did the UK make to that discussion, given the cuts that we have seen in our UK Border Force?

Finally, on Britain’s negotiations with Europe, can the noble Baroness inform your Lordships’ House whether there will be any treaty changes before the referendum takes place? I understand the Prime Minister’s political difficulties and the sensitivities around this but it is a really important issue. How long was he given to make his case at the summit? Perhaps she can help me: we are not clear at this stage what he is negotiating for. There is even confusion among those he is negotiating with about what he is negotiating for. British citizens, who are going to be asked to vote in a referendum, are also unclear what he is negotiating for. The Prime Minister said in his Statement that this was the first stage, “to kick off the technical work” between now and December. What exactly does that mean and what steps will be taken to keep the public informed?

It is a fact of geography that we are an island nation but all these issues impact on the lives of British citizens. Whether it is terrorism in Tunisia, refugees in the Mediterranean or the economy in Greece, these problems connect us all, and if we are to genuinely address them, we must do it together.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement made by the Prime Minister. I certainly join her and the Leader of the Opposition in expressing on behalf of these Benches our condolences to those families who have lost loved ones through the senseless and brutal terrorist attack in Tunisia. Our heartfelt thoughts are with those who were injured in the attack and are seeking as best they can to recover from those injuries.

Like the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition, I think it is important to pay tribute to the heroic members of staff who went to the assistance of those who had been injured, and the holidaymakers who helped. As was acknowledged by the Prime Minister, there has been a considerable immediate response by Foreign and Commonwealth Office staff, consular officials, the police and the Red Cross. These are all very welcome.

The Leader of the Opposition also reflected on those who have expressed the view that they wish to stay on holiday in Tunisia. I certainly heard one of them on the “Today” programme this morning. I cannot help but reflect that it is the resilience of ordinary people to terrorism that will ultimately undermine the hate of terrorist organisations.

The Government have talked about a “full spectrum” of measures to support Tunisia and to address the consequences of the appalling events of last Friday. In his Statement, the Prime Minister referred to working with President Hollande of France, Chancellor Merkel of Germany and Prime Minister Michel of Belgium to help Tunisia strengthen security. That is a particularly welcome example of proper co-operation within Europe to help Tunisia. As well as shedding some light on what kind of help is in mind, perhaps the Leader of the House could also acknowledge that in addition to security measures, wider economic support will clearly have to be given to nurture what is a fledgling democracy. There are historic ties between our two countries. If democracy is to take root and flourish, it is very important that we not only give economic help—given the inevitable damage there will be to the tourist trade—but help where we can to support the institutional arrangements in Tunisia. Will the Leader of the House also update the House on what influence the Government are bringing to bear on those countries in the Middle East with which we have good working relations in order to undermine sources of funding to ISIL?

I heard the Prime Minister reported in the press today talking about the values of democracy, justice, freedom and tolerance. It will be these values that will prevail. I certainly wish to endorse that but there is an age-old balance to be struck between security and these values and freedoms that we cherish. Can I therefore have a reassurance from the Leader of the House that, in addressing the necessary measures, it will also be important not to undermine those values which we think are so important in winning the battle against the intolerance of extremism?

To return to the EU Council meeting, we have heard about the dynamics of the meeting. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, asked just how long the Prime Minister had to make his case. At the end of an eight-page communiqué issued after the meeting, there are two—or, rather, one and a half lines—that say:

“The UK Prime Minister set out his plans for an (in/out) referendum in the UK. The European Council agreed to revert to the matter in December”.

It has been reported that this was done during what in other circumstances might be described as a pit stop. Some colour on how the Prime Minister presented his case would be very welcome.

The Prime Minister’s Statement talks about both reform and renegotiation. If there is to be renegotiation of the treaty and there is treaty change, it will almost inevitably require referendums in France, Ireland and Denmark. Can the Leader of the House perhaps clarify whether the Prime Minister is expecting treaty change? Will the referendum which we are having here be contingent on those treaty changes having been approved in the referendums of those EU countries which require them under their own constitutions? Or is it just the case that the Prime Minister is not very clear at this stage whether he wants reform or renegotiation and is hedging his bets?

With regard to migrants, do the Government accept that many of those crossing the Mediterranean are fleeing war and persecution in places such as Syria and Eritrea and are forced to undertake dangerous journeys due to a lack of safe and legal routes to find protection? A key part of the response to the crisis must be to offer refugees safe routes into the EU so that they no longer have to make such dangerous journeys or have to use the appalling means of people smugglers. Given that there are now 20 million refugees worldwide, I am sure that the noble Baroness will accept that to resettle just 20,000 must only be a starting point. She talked about the Prime Minister making further commitments in Bratislava recently. By one estimate, we have so far resettled 187 Syrians. There are estimates of nearly 4 million Syrian refugees, most living in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey. Can she indicate, in the light of what the Prime Minister committed to in Bratislava, what numbers we expect to see as an increase?

Finally, I acknowledge that the United Kingdom did have and has exercised a legal right not to take part in this resettlement—the opt-out. Perhaps the Leader of the House will explain to your Lordships the moral case for that course of action.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for their comments about the despicable act of cruelty that occurred in Tunisia last Friday. I certainly support the tributes that they have paid not just to the officials and all those involved in supporting the people and families affected but also to the Tunisians themselves. Anyone listening to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary doing her press conference in Sousse earlier today would have heard how she paid a very big tribute to everybody there and to the local people of Sousse.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned those who wish to stay in Tunisia and those who wish to continue to go on holiday there. She asked about the travel advice offered by the Foreign Office. That was updated to reflect the heightened risk of terrorist attacks post the events on Friday but, as I said in the Statement that I repeated, we are not advising against travel to that area. She also asked what further support we are providing to Tunisia for it to continue to be an attractive place for people to go on holiday to. We are doing a range of things: in an immediate sense, we are sending over relevant experts to make sure that the resorts have the security that they need; we are also looking at what is possible to support the Tunisian police to take an intelligence-led approach to policing in this area. As far as financial assistance to Tunisia is concerned, since 2011 we have already made quite a considerable contribution. We have done that through the Arab Partnership initiative, and we certainly want to look at that again in the light of events. We continue to work with all partners to ensure that we tackle terrorism at source.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned the effect of the events on the Muslim community here in the United Kingdom. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, also asked about values of democracy and what we are doing to promote our own values. I first pay real tribute to the Muslim community and its work to tackle extremism. We are working, and want to continue working, with the Muslim community to support it, and together to ensure that we are even more effective than we have been so far in addressing extremism.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, then asked some questions about the European Council and pointed specifically to the debate on the European Union’s external borders. As she knows, and as the House knows, we are not part of the Schengen agreement but we play a proper part in protecting the European Union’s borders. We contribute in quite a significant way to ensuring that the security around our borders is tight. One of the areas where we provide a lot of specific expertise is on asylum. She also asked about treaty change and the Prime Minister’s contribution during the European Council on his move to renegotiate and reform Britain’s membership of the European Union. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, asked about that too. I will say a couple of points in response.

First, it was an historic moment at the European Council on Thursday night. We have started the process to which the Prime Minister committed of Britain having a renegotiation with Europe, for reform in Europe and for us to seek a better deal for the United Kingdom. Prior to the European Council, he met and spoke to all the other European leaders. As was made clear, Thursday marked the start of this process, which will continue. He will ensure that throughout the next few months Parliament is kept informed of progress. The initial talks will be what we call technical talks at an official level. It is worth noting, for example, that my right honourable friend the Europe Minister, David Lidington, is giving evidence tomorrow to the House of Lords European Union Committee. I am sure that he will be asked about this at that time. Therefore, we will continue to keep people informed as we make progress on the start of something that the British people really want, and we will ensure that, finally, they do get their say in membership of the European Union.

As far as the questions put about Mediterranean migration and the steps on that are concerned, I say first that our contribution is very comprehensive. HMS “Bulwark” has contributed to saving 4,000 lives, as I mentioned in the Statement; 900 of those were just over the weekend. The Government have a very different view from the Labour Opposition. We are committed to a programme of resettlement of people from outside Europe—so people who are at risk in countries such as Syria and Libya. We play a big part in resettling people from those countries to the United Kingdom. However, we do not believe that it is right to follow a programme of resettlement of people who have already made the crossing over the Mediterranean to Europe. As the Prime Minister made clear in his Statement, we believe that would make the prospect all the more attractive to the gangs who create misery by promoting this as a prospect, which is not one that we believe is the right way forward. We want to support these countries with aid, and political support where that is appropriate, to make sure that they themselves—the countries that these people are seeking to leave—offer the kind of future and prosperity that all the people who live there rightly deserve. That is what we are doing and where we will continue to focus our efforts.

G7

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement on the G7 summit. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, indicated, there is much in the summit and in the Statement which can be welcomed: the further steps to promote trade deals; the ambition to set goals at the United Nations in September to eradicate extreme poverty by 2030; the steps being taken to tackle corruption; specific support for Nigeria; initiatives to fight disease overseas; support for the efforts of Prime Minister al-Abadi in Iraq to build a more inclusive Government to bring his country together in challenging ISIL. However, I remember that when the House was recalled to debate Iraq last September, there was an expectation that the new Iraqi Government would reach out to include the Sunni community. It would therefore be useful to know what encouragement and support has been given to Prime Minister al-Abadi in these intervening months to achieve that goal.

I will not follow the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and will resist the temptation to ask the Leader of the House what her immediate thoughts were when she heard the “Back Me Or Resign” headlines on Monday morning. However, if she chooses to share that with the House, I am sure that we will all be quite interested. However, does not the very fact that Downing Street had to spend time and energy throughout Monday to correct a so-called “misinterpretation” by the entire travelling media pack just illustrate the fault-line at the heart of Britain’s foreign policy? While the Government and government-led public debate at home obsess about a referendum on European Union membership, our voice is, inevitably, diminished on the profoundly serious global issues which are the focus of such summits: the Middle East, Ukraine, global climate change and the plight of refugees in the Mediterranean.

While the Prime Minister may have tried to make a robust rebuttal of claims by some US envoys that we are becoming “Great Shrinking Britain”, should it not concern all of us who believe that as a nation we can and should be a positive force in the world, punching above our weight, that the perception of some of our closest allies is that our contribution and influence are waning? It would therefore be very welcome if in answering some specific questions, the Leader of the House could give answers which, by their substance, show that we are not a shrinking Britain.

The Statement refers to Russia, Ukraine, and implementing Minsk, and to welcome commitments by the G7 which state that diplomatic efforts must succeed in restoring Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. In any future developments or negotiations, will the UK, as a signatory to the Budapest memorandum, play a full part, or, as in Minsk earlier in the year, will we leave it to France and Germany?

We welcome the long-term goals for climate change, but with regard to the bold but very welcome commitment by the G7 to decarbonise the global economy by the end of the century, how do the Government expect the UK’s commitment to be taken seriously if persistent rumours materialise that the Energy and Climate Change Secretary will announce restrictions of the renewables obligation for onshore wind developments currently in the planning stage? The Prime Minister’s Statement referred to businesses having the confidence to invest in low-carbon technology, but what signals will be sent to potential investors in new renewables projects such as wave or tidal power if the Government can change the support regime at such short notice?

Finally, it is right to pay tribute to those, including those on HMS “Bulwark”, who are engaged in humanitarian rescue missions in the Mediterranean, and right to acknowledge the measures agreed at the G7 which address that issue, including the backing for UN-led efforts to put in place a national unity Government in Libya. However, surely a far more fundamental approach will be required to address the underlying causes of why people are fleeing their homes. Can we look to the United Kingdom Government to give leadership in the G7 and other forums to pursue initiatives which, in their magnitude, match the scale of the problem?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on her election as Leader of the Opposition in this House. This is the first opportunity that I have had to do so from the Dispatch Box. Regarding both her comments and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, on Europe and their questions about the European referendum—to which my party has been committed for a long time and in which it is pleased that, following yesterday’s historic vote in the House of Commons, there will now be an opportunity for all the people of this country to participate—I say to them that it is ironic that they are now asking me questions about that when only about a month ago they did not wish to support that opportunity for everybody. They know very well that our manifesto commitment is that the Prime Minister will negotiate for reforms in Europe that are in the interests of the UK and, indeed, of Europe. All of us in government are signed up to that commitment, and when the Prime Minister has concluded his negotiations he will put a question to the United Kingdom for the people to decide in the in/out referendum. We very much support that process, which has now started.

I should correct the noble Baroness. Boris Johnson attends the political Cabinet; he does not attend the Cabinet in the normal sense of the word.

Moving on to the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, made about Europe distracting the Prime Minister in some way in his contribution to the discussions at the G7, I would say: far from it. In all the discussions over the two days in Germany, the Prime Minister was very much able to show that the UK is both setting the agenda and leading the way on some of these very important issues.

I am grateful for the support that I heard from both opposition Benches for what we are doing to ensure that sanctions against Russia are very much in place. The noble Baroness asked me about the European Council in June. We will most definitely be seeking the full rollover of those sanctions. The Minsk agreement is not fully implemented and the sanctions will remain in place until it is. If Russia were to extend its aggression, we would certainly consider the extension of sanctions, but the first aim is to make sure that we get them rolled over while Minsk is not being implemented.

The noble Baroness asked about the effect on some of the countries that are imposing sanctions and what actions might be taken to support them. We need to be quite careful about singling out individual countries in that way, because the whole purpose of imposing these sanctions is to show that the rest of us want to abide by the collective rules that apply across the world. If we impose sanctions on somebody who has broken those rules, we do so knowing that there is a cost to us but it is one that we are willing to bear. The principle of maintaining the fundamental international rules is so important that when somebody breaks them we are willing to take some cost. However, the bigger cost is on Russia with the sanctions that it is now having to cope with.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for the support that they offered today for what the UK is doing in our campaign regarding ISIL in Iraq. In that context, there were certainly questions from both about what more we are doing to encourage and ensure that Prime Minister al-Abadi moves his Government towards becoming more inclusive. That is something that we pursue at all levels, and the signs are clearly that he is seeking to achieve that himself. We are giving support to Iraq so that the Iraq armed forces are in a strong position to be deployed against ISIL. We are training them up to do the necessary work in their own sovereign territory.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about TTIP, the EU and US trade deal, and specifically whether the National Health Service would be protected. I can give her an absolute guarantee on that. Over the last few months, there have been commitments, guarantees and clarifications from both the current relevant European Commissioner and his predecessor. Given that this trade deal is so important to the prosperity of this country and so many others, I would urge that, rather than focusing on the potential risks associated with TTIP, which do not exist, a better approach would be for us to unite in support of applying some pressure to America to sign up to the deal.

There were questions on climate change. Our view is that the terms of the climate change agreement that we are seeking to achieve in Paris will be legally binding and we will continue to press for that. We very much believe that there are real benefits to the economy from making sure that we take a leading role in this area and that there are real threats from climate change that need to be properly dealt with.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked me specifically about an Oral Question and Answer between the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and my noble friend Lord Faulks. I do not have the specific detail to hand, so, if I may, I will have to come back to her on that. However, the point I was making by referring to FIFA in repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement is that FIFA is an illustration of how corruption needs to be tackled. It was the Prime Minister who put this on the agenda in Germany and the House might like to know that in the light of the discussions at the G7 at the start of the week, the Japanese Prime Minister has agreed to take that forward into his presidency next year.

As I say, this is something on which we are setting the agenda and leading the way. We are making good progress in all these important areas.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Wednesday 27th May 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, it is indeed a pleasure to echo the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in her praise for the very able proposer of the humble Address: the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley of Nettlestone. I start by thanking the noble Baroness for her gracious acknowledgement of the contribution that my party and colleagues made in government over the past five years: that in 2010 we stepped up to the plate and took responsibility. What she said was very much appreciated.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said, the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, has had an interesting, varied and distinguished career. I note in particular that she is still a trustee of the Economist newspaper. She quoted some historic editions of that esteemed publication but it would be remiss of me today not to mention a more recent verdict that it made ahead of the general election. It said that the risk of a Tory Government was an EU exit, and concluded that,

“the best hope for Britain is with a continuation of a Conservative-led coalition”,

with the Liberal Democrats. While coalition government is certainly not in the immediate thinking of my colleagues in the other place, I assure the noble Baroness that she is always welcome to join us in the voting Lobbies on issues such as Europe and voting reform, which the Economist praises so highly.

The Motion on the humble Address was seconded most ably by the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein. He is of course a remarkable and compelling writer, which was clearly evident in his response to the gracious Speech today. But I cannot help but note the noble Lord’s article in today’s Times on the death of the Liberal Democrats, to which he referred. I would simply say to the noble Lord, to misquote the great Mark Twain, that, “reports of our death have been greatly exaggerated”. Of course, Mark Twain also said that to,

“succeed in life you need two things: ignorance and confidence”.

I say with great fondness to the noble Lord, whose Twitter account I started to follow only last week, that he made a very confident speech today.

It is also a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, this afternoon, and I hope there will be further opportunities in your Lordships’ House at a later stage to pay a more fulsome tribute to her. On behalf of my colleagues, I should say that we believe that she has been of great service to this House, both as Leader of the House and Leader of the Opposition. We wish her well, and we know that she will continue to campaign for and champion the causes that mean so much to her.

I express my personal congratulations to the Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, on her continuation in office, and quite properly at Cabinet rank. She has proven herself to be a well-liked and capable Leader of this House, meticulous in her attention to detail and scrupulous in her desire to represent the interests and views of the whole House. I wish her every success in this role in what I suspect will be a very different Parliament from the last one.

I counted it a real privilege to be Deputy Leader of your Lordships’ House and to work closely with the noble Baroness and her predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Oareford. I particularly want to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on becoming Deputy Leader of this House; he is a paragon of calm in what I am sure will sometimes be stormy waters. Before working with the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, as Deputy Leader, we worked closely together as we steered the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill through your Lordships’ House. I am sure she agrees that it is one of our proudest achievements in ministerial office in the coalition Government.

It is an honour and a privilege to be in government, and I remain proud of the progressive liberal changes that my party helped to bring about in the last five years, which I believe made this country fairer. But there can be no doubt from the election campaign and the results that followed that this is a very difficult time for the Liberal Democrats. It is also a dangerous time for liberal democracy. Liberal British values of tolerance, generosity and moderation are under threat as never before, just when they are most needed. The rise of nationalism that we are seeing both in England and in Scotland, with the divisions that it provokes and the fear that it promotes, is the antithesis of freedom, liberty and equality—everything that I believe in and everything that my party stands for. If I can believe it, I am pleased that the gracious Speech made clear that the Government’s intention is to be a one-nation Government. However, given the way in which they sometimes stoked fear of the SNP to win their majority, one sometimes wonders which nation. I echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said: we will work with the Government to ensure that we secure the integrity of the United Kingdom, because I fundamentally believe that we are better together.

Therefore, I welcome the announcement of a Scotland Bill in the gracious Speech, based on the Smith commission proposals. Honouring commitments made to Wales and Northern Ireland is equally important. So, too, is the welcome but still insufficient commitment to devolution in the north. But, as many noble Lords mentioned in debates in the last Parliament, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said today, there needs to be coherence to our constitutional developments. The time has surely come for a major, cross-party constitutional convention, to find a new resting point for British politics and a new settlement for our nations, our regions, our cities and our people. This Parliament has the opportunity to be the one that creates a new, lasting settlement for our country,

It should come as no surprise that we are disappointed by much of the content of the gracious Speech. The Government’s agenda set out in the gracious Speech smacks of a party set to fight the battles of the past, and possibly to repeat some of its mistakes. We have heard much in recent days about this being the first gracious Speech of a majority Conservative Government in almost 20 years. The pity of it is that they seem intent on taking up just where they left off. The European Referendum Bill is the latest manifestation of efforts to paper over cracks in the Conservative Party. There is almost no greater example of our nation’s commitment to being an open, internationalist country than our membership of the European Union. We can and should be at the forefront of shaping the EU. To put that in jeopardy, particularly at a time when our economy is still fragile, is not the forward-looking agenda that we on these Benches wish to see. Instead, it would be better to look at how we can work with our European allies, within the European Union, to tackle the challenges of the next generation, particularly climate change. Instead of an EU referendum, a forward-looking gracious Speech would have seen Bills to create a zero-carbon Britain, where green energy and green industry can thrive. When the EU referendum Bill comes to your Lordships’ House, I can assure your Lordships that we shall give it the thorough scrutiny that is this House’s hallmark.

The gracious Speech is also notable for the omission of firm legislative proposals for the repeal and replacement of the Human Rights Act. It sometimes makes me wonder whether it was a Conservative manifesto commitment made as a chip to be bargained away in a potential coalition negotiation. The former Attorney-General described last autumn’s Conservative proposals as “unworkable” and as containing “a number of howlers”, so no wonder they have now hit the pause button. Colleagues on these Benches will certainly scrutinise robustly whatever consultative proposals emerge in the weeks ahead. In addition, we will be advocating a new Bill of Rights—a digital Bill of Rights—which will help safeguard and protect our citizens online and ensure that the rights enshrined in British law in 1998 hold true as we enter a world full of new technology that does not respect national boundaries.

Obviously, there are some Bills that are to be welcomed in the gracious Speech. Measures to expand childcare, increase the personal allowance, increase apprenticeships and address issues of mental health are all welcome, not least because they are measures whose genesis lies on these Benches rather than with the Prime Minister’s policy team. However, all will be undermined if the ideological drive for spending cuts undermines many of these proposals. Measures to tackle coasting schools are all well and good, but not when the Government plan to cut billions from the schools budget, which we on these Benches wish to see protected. Too often we see a backward-looking agenda from a party that seems to want to fight the grievances of the past rather than to look forward to innovation and new ideas.

I conclude by talking briefly about the conventions of your Lordships’ House. Much has been written in the days since the election—indeed, this was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein—about the predicament in which the Government now find themselves here and the importance of the Salisbury convention. It is of course right and proper that we uphold the measures that allow our revising Chamber to remain a self-regulating House. I do not question the right of the House of Commons and a Government who command its confidence to have their legislation dealt with in a constructive manner by this House. However, we may wish to reflect on the strength of the mandate of a Government who secured less than 37% of the popular vote on a turnout of 66% should they seek to drive through ill-thought-through and reactionary legislation without the robust scrutiny and proper checks and balances provided by your Lordships’ House. The House and the Government would do well to remember that the report produced under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, Conventions of the UK Parliament, recognised the right of this House, in extreme and exceptional circumstances, to say no. The importance of the House of Lords retaining the right to say no is that that is the power which brings the Government to the table in a constructive frame of mind. Indeed, Ministers would be wise to heed the words of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, in his evidence to the Cunningham committee, when he said that,

“where a government is trying to push through some very unpopular measure with a very, very small majority, with a substantial government rebellion, I think it is a clear signal for the House of Lords to take extra special care in examining that measure”.

This House has demonstrated time and again that we can be the last bastion of defence of civil liberties and human rights. On these issues in particular, this House has a legitimate right to question the excesses of any Government. It has the right vigorously to scrutinise and revise legislation.

On 15 May, the Guardian said of the Liberal Democrats: “Missing them Already”. I can assure your Lordships that, in the key debates and legislative scrutiny which take place in your Lordships’ House in this Parliament, we have no intention of being missing in action.

Iraq

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)]

My Lords, I start by associating myself with the noble Lord, Lord Bach, in thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate. There is probably nothing more serious than inviting Parliament and your Lordships’ House to consider issues of substantial military action. The benefit of your Lordships’ House is that a huge reservoir of expertise can be brought to bear in debates such as these, as well as political, military, diplomatic and a wide range of community and civic knowledge and experience. It has been a very serious debate, and I am very grateful to all those who have taken part. As my noble friend Lord Alderdice said at the beginning, while the other place will take the actual decision on a Motion, your Lordships’ House can consider the wider questions and proffer constructive advice to Her Majesty’s Government. That is very much what we have seen.

I welcome the fact that, with only a few exceptions, there has been widespread support for the proposal that the Government are putting in their Motion in the House of Commons. That is very welcome, particularly if it is passed on to those who will go into operation, so that they know they do so with widespread backing from Parliament.

I do not want to elaborate on the sheer abhorrence and barbarity of ISIL because that has been said by many who have contributed to the debate. While in no way minimising or detracting from other expressions of that barbarity, important points were made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean and Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, about the particular venom and violence directed towards women. That puts very graphically the nature of those with whom we are dealing.

My noble friend Lord Alton asked about the International Criminal Court. My understanding is that any decision to refer those who perpetrate such barbarity to the International Criminal Court must be made on the basis of what would be the most effective means to bring the perpetrators of such atrocities to account. Iraq is not party to the ICC so any referral would need to be through the UN Security Council. However, I can assure the noble Lord that we will continue to look at every available option to ensure accountability and to work with our international partners on what can best be done to assist victims and bring those responsible to justice.

A number of noble Lords said that ISIL is not an enemy that can be negotiated with. While diplomacy has a major role to play in strengthening the regional alliances that are essential for the stability of the Middle East, no diplomatic deal can be done with ISIL. Left unchecked, it will continue its advances in the region and continue to intensify its fight against the West, including with attacks on European soil. We reach for military action not as the first port of call, but as a last resort. It is important to recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, said, that we do this with our eyes open. That was reflected by many who contributed to the debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Desai, said, this will take time. It would be very naive to assume, if there were to be air strikes this weekend, that it would all be finished by Christmas. We have to be realistic about this.

We also recognise that we are engaging in this not in isolation, but as part of a broader coalition, including the Arab states. It is a coalition that is in the service of the Iraqi Government. The targets of our air strikes will be carefully selected and with a clear aim: to help the legitimate authorities in Iraq to destroy ISIL. I cannot agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that we are somewhat late to the party. The United Kingdom Government have taken other actions. We have been very much at the fore of getting United Nations resolutions to try to cut off streams of funding to ISIL. During the recent NATO summit in Wales we were very much leading the discussions and considerations as to how we could build up coalitions.

The coalition is involved not only in military strikes, but in providing arms to Iraq and the KRG. It includes a wide range of countries—for time, I will not list them all. There are those that give other assistance, including humanitarian aid, or take action to tackle ISIL’s financing and foreign fighters. It is a coalition of 60 nations. Looking very specifically at how this is working, I am advised by my noble friend Lord Astor that one of the planes the UAE contributed to the military strike in Syria earlier this week had a female pilot. It is interesting that there are things that might have been thought unthinkable in how different interests and countries bring what they can to bear against ISIL.

The noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, asked about China. There was a UN Security Council resolution this week, which was not in any way opposed by China, that recognised the threat of terrorism from organisations, including ISIL.

The noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, was absolutely right when he said that we require a strategy that goes beyond military capability. If all we were bringing to the debate today was military action in the form of air strikes, I think we would be on weak ground. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, in opening for the Opposition, made a measured and constructive speech. He talked about the need not only for a military action but for one that is supported as part of a wider diplomatic and political humanitarian approach. That is very much what we believe is necessary here. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, said that military action must be part of a wider political strategy. And of course, as I have mentioned, diplomatic efforts are being made. I have already mentioned specifically what would be done in the United Nations to try to ensure that effective action will be taken to stem the financial flow to ISIL, but the political context in this case is very important as well.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the change of Government in Iraq from Mr al-Maliki’s Administration to the one with Mr al-Abadi. It is important to recognise that the new Government include appointments from the country’s main Shia, Sunni and Kurdish communities. My understanding is that when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister saw Mr al-Abadi in New York on Wednesday, he urged him to reach out to all communities, and notably to Iraqi Sunnis and Kurds. He has committed to reforms, including decentralising power, reforming and restructuring the security forces and improving relations with Iraq’s neighbours. He has announced a series of measures to reach out to the Sunni communities, including reform of the judiciary and security forces, and has already brought back into government some who opposed Mr al-Maliki’s divisiveness. That is an encouraging start, but I think everyone recognises that it is just that: a start. We must look to the new Iraqi Government as they deliver change and build trust so that they can unite against the threat they face. It would also be fair to say that no amount of military equipment or training can assist a military force that does not have political cohesion, a clear direction and a common purpose. I therefore believe strongly that a political settlement is a key part of the solution to this crisis.

Closely linked to that is a point that was expressed very well by my noble friend Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, who has experience, having been to the region. Part of this is building up an infrastructure. It is about water supplies, electricity supplies, health provision and education. It is important to recognise that the initial humanitarian response that was requested by the Iraqi Government earlier in the summer has resulted in an important contribution of life-saving aid being made. I take the point made by my noble friend about looking again at more specific humanitarian aid being directed towards Iraq, and I will ensure that it is brought to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Development.

For the wider area and Syria, the United Kingdom Government have allocated £329 million to partners providing humanitarian assistance. We have provided support to Lebanon and Jordan. One of the specific initiatives that I would like to draw to noble Lords’ attention is that more than 6.6 million children across Syria and the wider region are in need because more than half of them are out of school. There is a fear about a lost generation of Syrian children who have experienced trauma and displacement. We have seen the No Lost Generation initiative increase support for education, psychosocial support and protection for Syrian children. The United Kingdom is supporting organisations in Syria and the region in this. That is the kind of initiative that is important and must be seen as part of the effort. None of this alone is the solution; it must be part of an overall diplomatic, political and humanitarian approach.

The question of Syria came up on a number of occasions. Perhaps I may reiterate what my noble friend the Leader of the House said in opening the debate. The Government’s position is that we believe that there is a strong case for the United Kingdom to join in international action against ISIL in Syria, because ISIL must be defeated in both Iraq and Syria. We expressed our support for the air strikes conducted by the United States and five Arab nations against ISIL in Syria.

However, the proposal and Motion before the House of Commons today relates to the action that we as a country propose to take in Iraq. I reiterate that the Government will return to the House of Commons for a separate decision if we propose to take military action against ISIL and Syria. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, and others, including the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Bach, asked about your Lordships’ House. Having recently discussed this on the Bench with my noble friend, I think it is inconceivable that, after a decision of that magnitude has been taken in the House of Commons, this House would not also have an opportunity to express a view similar to the way that we have done today. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, indicated, this is different inasmuch as we have been recalled, and I am sure that if there are events when we are sitting, there will be an opportunity for the Government to be held to account, as well as opportunities for the Government to keep the House informed of developments.

Some things have been said about co-operating with the Syrian authorities. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, President Assad is part of the problem and not part of the solution. His actions in Syria have driven many people into the arms of organisations such as ISIL. However, we believe that there is a role for us. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, also asked about the Geneva initiative. We believe that an inclusive political settlement in Syria is very pressing to bring together all Syria’s communities. A lasting political settlement has been our aim. The new United Nations special envoy, Staffan de Mistura, recently made his first visit to the region and we certainly support his efforts to bring about a political solution. We believe that the Geneva II talks failed because President Assad indicated that he was not willing to negotiate seriously with the Syrian opposition, but I assure the House that we will give such support as we can to the efforts being made by the new UN special envoy.

I was asked about Iran. The statement that we issued after the Prime Minister met President Rouhani on Wednesday this week was that the Prime Minister and the President noted the threat posed to the whole region by ISIL and agreed that all states in the region must do more to cut off support for all terrorist groups, including financial support. The Prime Minister welcomes the support that the Iranian Government have given the new Government of Iraq and their efforts to promote more inclusive governance for all Iraqis. He argued that a similar approach was needed in Syria to promote a transition to a new Government capable of representing all Syrians.

With regard to Turkey, it is a great tribute to the Turkish authorities that 847,000 refugees have entered Turkey, including 130,000 in the last week alone. This Government very much welcome Turkey’s generosity and the challenge it has taken on in hosting refugees, and we would certainly urge Turkey to keep its borders open.

Finally, one of your Lordships said that if we do not take action in the streets of Iraq, we will deal with the problem on the streets of the United Kingdom. My noble friend the Leader of the House indicated in her opening speech a number of the actions and initiatives that the Government are pursuing and intend to pursue to improve our homeland security. For example, we will obviously want to give serious consideration to observations, recommendations and advice from the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson QC. However, a number of those who contributed to the debate—not least the noble Lord, Lord Bach—drew attention to the fact that many Muslim people hold many positions in, and contribute widely to, our community and to what is strong and good in the United Kingdom. We must make sure that when we undertake any actions, we recognise that there are indeed many British Muslims who have spoken out against ISIL. That is exemplified by the Not In My Name initiative—a campaign which has been pursued very widely. As my noble friend Lord Paddick said, Islamic terrorism is a contradiction in terms.

These are very difficult times for the Muslim community in Britain. One can readily understand why people get angered and dismayed by the way in which their religion has been perverted by violent extremists and by the way the word “Islam” can be heard every night on the TV in the context of brutal atrocities. It would be unacceptable to see any rise in Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. However, that is what organisations such as al-Qaeda and ISIL want to foment. They are determined to engineer hatred and division between people of different faiths and none. Let us be very clear. Islam is a religion of peace, it is welcome in Britain, and it is entirely compatible with the British way of life and our values. It is important that we make that abundantly clear.

Finally, there is the question of ideas, which the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury raised in his contribution, and which was echoed by other noble Lords in our debate such as the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, and others. They said that we must have a competing vision to that offered by ISIL. That is not just a matter for government; it goes much wider than that, to the religious faiths and to our community at large, and we will not solve it in a four or five-hour debate on a Friday afternoon. However, it is fundamental that we offer something that is seen to be much more compelling, which people feel that they can adhere to and want to champion, rather than the barbarity and the distorted and depraved values that people are so regrettably going to Syria and Iraq to champion. That is a challenge to all of us.

Again, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed. I apologise that in a relatively short time I did not have the opportunity to pick up on every point. I will say in closing only that while it may be presumptuous to anticipate the result of the Division at the other end of our Palace in just over half an hour’s time, the expectation is that the Motion before the House of Commons will be carried. With that in mind, we wish our service men and women, who will be acting in operations as a result of that, every success. They go with our best wishes.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!

Reading Clerk

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 3rd March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, on behalf of these Benches, I thank and pay tribute to Rhodri Walters for his excellent and indefatigable work throughout his career communicating the work of Parliament to a wider audience. He has led in the delivery of learning materials for the parliamentary studies module, an innovative educational partnership between the Houses of Parliament and universities which was launched in 2012. As many noble Lords will know, he was the author, together with Sir Robert Rogers, of How Parliament Works, a uniquely authoritative yet accessible account of how Parliament works. The seventh edition, I can tell noble Lords, will be available in all good bookshops soon. The sixth edition, labelled a “a rare treat” by one commentator, was described by Andrew Marr as,

“clear, elegant, invaluable, bang up-to-date and full of dry wit”.

I can think of no better way of describing one of its authors, Rhodri Walters, and I wish him well in his retirement.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)]

My Lords, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats I wish to associate myself with the words of the Leader of the House and of the Leader of the Opposition in thanking Rhodri Walters for his long and distinguished service to the House, not just as Reading Clerk but in the many offices that he held in the House.

As the Leader of the House said, we have all become very familiar with Rhodri Walters reading out the Letters Patent. After a bit of research, I discovered that I was possibly the first Life Peer whose Letters Patent he read out when I was introduced in November 2007. I once asked him whether he could do that blindfolded after all the times he had done it. He replied that he probably could but would never dare try.

We should also recognise the many different roles that the Reading Clerk plays. One of Rhodri’s roles was as Clerk of the Overseas Office, where he helped the first two Lord Speakers build their roles as the House’s ambassadors overseas. He also helped the House to deepen its ties with Commonwealth Parliaments and to forge new links elsewhere, most notably with Russia, having organised a very successful visit to Westminster of the President of the Federation Council of the Russian Federation.

Rhodri Walters was also instrumental in the House’s engagement with Parliaments of European Union member states, culminating in organising a very successful meeting of the Association of European Senates last year, when this House played host to the Speakers of 15 European upper Chambers.

Reference has also been made to Rhodri’s recreation. I am told by a former member of his staff—it is right to say that those who worked for him held him in highest regard—that he was able to jump, both feet together, from a floor on to a table. For the past six and a half years, his feet were very firmly under the table except when he was standing up reading. For his loyal service we are very grateful and we wish him well in his retirement.

Nelson Mandela

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 9th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)]

My Lords, I associate those of us on the Liberal Democrat Benches with the condolences expressed by the Leader and shadow Leader of the House to the family of Nelson Mandela and to the people of South Africa.

It is a reflection of the stature of Nelson Mandela, of a life conspicuous for the breadth of his humanity, and the profundity of his messages of reconciliation and inspirational hope, that tributes such as this will be being paid in parliaments and assemblies on every continent. But more than that, as befits a man who radiated such humility, tributes and prayers have been said not just by Prime Ministers and Presidents, but by ordinary people of every colour and creed.

I never had the honour of meeting Mr Mandela, but as he was leaving Westminster Hall after addressing both Houses of Parliament in 1996, he stopped at the end of the row I was sitting in to talk to two young children. I suspect that the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, remembers that he stopped at the end of many rows. I cannot put adequately into words the experience. Yes, it was his humanity; maybe, too, it was the proximity of someone who had endured so much and subsequently achieved so much for his people and his country; maybe it was his challenging words still ringing in my ears; but to say that his presence was magnetic would barely start to describe the aura of the man.

However, on the one occasion in my political life when my responsibilities brought me into Nelson Mandela’s orbit, I confess that I had to dare to disagree. Although he had wished a court in a neutral country with international judges to try the two men accused of the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie, President Mandela’s initiative eventually led to the handing over of the two men and their trial in the Scottish court in the Netherlands. In 2002, he visited the one man convicted, Abdelbaset al Megrahi, in Barlinnie prison. The BBC’s “Reporting Scotland” that night had an interview with Mr Mandela calling for Mr Megrahi’s removal to a prison in a Muslim country such as Egypt or Tunisia to serve out his sentence. This was followed by an interview with me, as Scottish Justice Minister, saying that the Scottish Government’s view was that we should abide by the UN resolution establishing the process, whereby any sentence would be served in a Scottish prison. Watching the programme at home in Orkney, my teenage daughter asked my wife, “So does that mean Nelson Mandela’s criticising my dad?”. When Rosie replied, “Probably, yes”, Clare thought for a moment and said, “Now that’s cool”.

That underlines the point that Nelson Mandela’s legendary status was understood and recognised across the generations as well as across continents. Young people who could not possibly remember his walk from prison, or the crowds waiting to vote in South Africa’s first properly democratic elections, nevertheless recognise that they have been alive during the lifetime of such a towering figure. And just as we, today, revere names of past generations such as Lincoln, Wilberforce, Gandhi, who championed the struggle for freedom, so too will future generations revere the name of Nelson Mandela—a man who transcended generations just as he bridged cultures and healed divisions; and just as he did when he addressed us in 1996. He did not shy away from reminding us of our colonial record or the dismissive response given by our forebears in the early years of the last century, when, as he said, his,

“predecessors in the leadership of the African National Congress came to these venerable Houses to say to the government and the legislators of the time that they, the patricians, should come to the aid of the poor citizens”.

But consistent with his powerful message of reconciliation at home, he talked to us about “closing the circle”, and said:

“Despite that rebuff and the terrible cost we had to bear as a consequence, we return to this honoured place neither with pikes, nor a desire for revenge, nor, even, a plea to your distinguished selves to assuage our hunger for bread. We come to you as friends”.

He concluded by challenging us:

“To close the circle, let our peoples, the ones formerly poor citizens and the others good patricians—politicians, business people, educators, health workers, scientists, engineers and technicians, sports people and entertainers, activists for charitable relief—join hands to build on what we have achieved together and help construct a humane African world, whose emergence will say a new universal order is born in which we are each our brother’s, or sister’s, keeper … and herald the advent of a glorious summer of a partnership for freedom, peace, prosperity and friendship”.

Our lasting tribute to Nelson Mandela is to take that challenge to our hearts, and respond with our actions.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, as always—and the Electoral Commission must be even more grateful than I. These are sensible amendments that one would have thought the commission would have supported, given all that it said about the scandalous issues that arose in Sheffield and a few other places during the last election. It is remarkable that it seems to have changed its mind.

I will put that to one side. The Government will make up their mind about whether to do something about the scandal in May last year. My question to the noble and learned Lord is: what do the Government intend to do to make sure that this does not happen again in May this year?

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, for returning to this important issue in his amendment. Many of us who watched the election night coverage of the scenes at certain polling stations where people who had been queuing were not given the opportunity to vote found that it offended our sense of justice as democrats. The Government certainly take it seriously. The Electoral Commission's report found that queues built up at a number of polling stations on 6 May for various reasons. It identified 27 polling stations across the country. In most cases, it found that the common factor was inadequate planning processes and contingency arrangements that were not in place.

I assure the House that the Government are considering the Electoral Commission's report. We will consider what steps are necessary to prevent a repeat of the problems. It is important that we make sure that any changes to the rules are workable and will benefit the public. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, referred to the briefing from the commission to Members of your Lordships' House in which it indicates that a change to the rules on the close of polls would be significant; that details of any changes would need careful consideration to ensure that they could be consistently applied and would not have any unintended consequences; that the amendment could lead to inconsistent practice; and that there has not been sufficient time to consider the implications of how the provisions of amendment might work in practice.

We previously assured the House, in a reasonably long debate on this issue in Committee, that the Bill already gives the chief counting officer the necessary powers and discretion to ensure that the referendum runs smoothly. She will have sufficient flexibility to decide what is right in particular circumstances, including the steps that have already been taken by the Electoral Commission to ensure that some of the problems that occurred on 6 May are not repeated. This will include all counting officers having effective planning processes and contingency plans. We advised the Committee that the Electoral Commission had indicated that the chief counting officer intends to issue directions to counting officers on the maximum number of electors who will be allocated to any polling station, and the associated minimum number of staff who must be present at each polling station to ensure that polling runs smoothly and that all electors who wish to vote are able to. The Government take this seriously and are considering the Electoral Commission's report.

[The Archbishop of York]

The amendment simply refers to taking measures to ensure that all those wishing to vote and arriving at a polling station within the appointed hours are able to do so. What could be the unintended consequences of that?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The Electoral Commission and the chief counting officer ultimately have responsibility for the smooth running of the election. Certainly—this may well be because we are running relatively close to polling day—they have taken the view that making such a significant change could have unintended consequences. In their judgment, it could lead to some inconsistencies in different parts of the country, and it would be regrettable if, in trying to address one very serious problem, we opened up some other unintended and unforeseen problems. I do not think we would be thanked for that, and therefore I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

My Lords, the manuscript amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, comes under the part of the schedule headed “Encouraging participation”. As I understand it, he wishes to place on the chief counting officer responsibility for co-ordinating the activities of a regional counting officer, a counting officer and a registration officer in performing their duties under paragraph 10 to encourage participation. It is very hard to see how anyone could object to that. I do not know whether there are any technical objections to the terms of the noble Lord’s manuscript amendment, but it seems a sensible measure, because there is no one in the House who does not want to encourage participation.

If there are technical problems with the manuscript amendment, I imagine that they could be tidied up at Third Reading on Monday. On the basis on which it has been advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, we support the principle of the amendment, subject to any difficulties that we have not foreseen to which the Minister may draw our attention.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury for tabling the amendment. He gave a history of the debate in Committee. We agreed when he withdrew his amendment in Committee that we would have further discussions. I am pleased that we have been able to have those discussions. In Committee, the Government indicated that we were not persuaded that such an amendment was necessary. My noble friend and I have agreed that there was merit on both sides. Our meeting has added clarity. It has put the issue of co-operation right up front. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, has emphasised the importance of co-operation, with which we all agree, in trying to ensure encouragement of participation in the referendum, usbregardless of which side of the campaign one might be on.

It is a manuscript amendment. If my noble friend is willing to give us the opportunity to reflect on its wording, I very much hope to be able to come back to him with a definitive response during Third Reading. Perhaps he would be prepared to withdraw his amendment at this stage on that basis.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

I am grateful to my noble and learned friend. I assume that there was a clear implication in that—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, for making two loud noises from a sedentary position, but his point was precisely that which was going through my mind about the noble and learned Lord’s response. It was not clear from what he said whether he would come back with something or whether he was just considering something. The response of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, is exactly the response that I would have given.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

If it helps, I very much hope to be able to come back with a very positive response to my noble friend. I just wanted to check.

Amendment 34ZA withdrawn.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 31st January 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, I will not go into technicalities, but I wish to express strong support from the Bishops’ Bench for the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, and fellow noble Lords, as a reconciling way forward at an impasse.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, for the way in which he introduced his amendment, which facilitated the debate on the very important amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, the Convener of the Cross Benches. I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment and for the helpful spirit in which she moved it, and all noble Lords for the general tenor of the Committee debate. As was indicated in some contributions, we have already had debates on the shape of the consultation process, most notably last Wednesday evening, when opposition Amendment 93 was debated. It was similar to Amendment 94 in a number of respects, but not identical in one crucial respect. My colleagues and I have listened with care to the arguments and strong opinions of both sides, expressed last week, today and, it is fair to say, in a number of other debates in Committee when the issue of public inquiries was raised.

I thank the noble Baroness for the valuable contribution that she is making, not only with this amendment but in the process of discussion and negotiation on the Bill. I hope that she knows that I am as keen as she is to find a satisfactory resolution to these matters. A week ago, she made clear during a short debate the desire of the Cross Benches that both Government and Opposition should engage in discussions in order that progress could be made on the Bill “with dignity and resolve”—I think those were her words. We welcome that sentiment. As we have made clear, the Government are open to considering reasonable improvements to the Bill provided that they do not compromise its fundamental principles. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, quoted me saying last week that there was no objection in principle to the idea of oral hearings.

The Bill establishes a consultation process that the Government consider is already an improvement on the process set out in the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986. That Act allows one month for written representations followed by a local inquiry if objections are received from an interested local authority or from 100 or more electors. A further month for written representations follows where a commission revises its recommendations, with the discretion to hold a second public inquiry. The Bill extends the period for written representations from one month to 12 weeks, with a second period of 12 weeks where recommendations are revised.