House of Lords Reform

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Tuesday 15th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, it is important when we are debating a take-note Motion that refers to “further incremental reform” to put it in context by recalling that the introductory text to the Parliament Act 1911 passed by the then Liberal Government says:

“And whereas it is intended to substitute for the House of Lords as it at present exists a Second Chamber constituted on a popular instead of hereditary basis, but such substitution cannot be immediately brought into operation”.

I rather suspect the House would have been surprised that 104 years later it still had not been brought into operation. In the 21st century, in a modern, forward-looking, innovative country like the United Kingdom, it is simply wrong that the public have never had the opportunity to vote for Members of this House, or the ability to hold us to account for our record. I believe that anyone who makes the laws of the country should be accountable to those they expect to obey those laws. In a democracy, we believe that legitimate power and political authority ultimately derive from the people.

It is worth reflecting that if the coalition government Bill proposed in 2012 by Nick Clegg and passed at Second Reading in the Commons with a majority of 338 had not had its progress frustrated in the House of Commons, we would now have Members of this House who were elected by the public and we would not be having this debate today. Questions of the burgeoning size of this House would not have arisen as membership of the House would have been reduced by a third under the provisions of that Bill. To be frank, I accept that the number on these Benches would be smaller, but the House of Commons frustrated that move.

Although I do not necessarily agree with the conclusion of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, on what should be done, I can perfectly understand his frustrations. He made points that I readily recognise. His party received a larger share of the vote in the United Kingdom general election than my party, yet there is only one UKIP MP in the House of Commons and there are eight Liberal Democrats. If there was a fairer, more proportional system of election to the House of Commons, there would be more than 80 UKIP MPs and 51 Liberal Democrats. At Question Time, last week, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, suggested that 40 of my colleagues should retire. It occurred to me that it would help address the balance in both Houses if it was possible to dispatch 43 colleagues from this House to the other place, but I suspect that that would not be democratic, either.

We are addressing issues this afternoon about the size of this House, the size of individual parties within this House, the balance across the House and, in discussing retirement, whether in effect membership of this House should actually be for the whole of the rest of one’s life. These are important issues about how this House is composed, and all are symptoms of a wider problem which has not been touched on in all the discussions around reform over the course of the summer in particular: what is the House of Lords for?

If there has been a weakness in the previous efforts to legislate for reform, it has been the inability to address the fear in the House of Commons that a democratically elected second Chamber would pose a threat, or at least be a rival, to the supremacy of the Commons. That is why it is necessary to address the question of function as well as composition. To my mind, the role of the House of Lords is not dissimilar to that articulated by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. It is: to scrutinise and revise the Government’s legislative agenda; to hold the Executive to account through questions, debates and the work of Select Committees; and, from time to time, to ask the House of Commons to think again. To be a Member of your Lordships’ House is to be in a position to fulfil this role. It is an honour and a privilege. Collectively, this House takes that role seriously. Individually, it has to be said, not every Member of the House applies themselves to this role with the same degree of dedication. Over the years, this Chamber has upped its game. It has listened to criticism and taken measures to strengthen the Code of Conduct and ensure that the Nolan principles on standards in public life are observed. However, there is no job description; and, crucially, most appointments are still largely reliant on patronage. As long as that is the case, this House and its Members will continue to be vulnerable to the charge, however unfair, of not working hard enough.

My noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood has suggested a compulsory retirement age. I am not personally persuaded by that; it is a somewhat blunt tool, designed simply to reduce the size of the House without asking the fundamental question of what kind of Members we need to have to effectively do the job we are asked to do. Experience and collective memory can both be useful attributes in fulfilling our revision and scrutiny roles. Not only does a fixed retirement age jar because of discrimination; it could lead to the exclusion of some who have still much of relevance to contribute. Some of my colleagues have suggested automatic retirement if a certain percentage of attendance is not reached in a Session. It is superficially attractive but attracts the old adage “Be careful what you wish for”, because it will defeat the object if it leads to Peers who seldom attend turning up more often but still not contributing, simply to keep up their membership.

Many rudimentary issues may be touched on this afternoon regarding the role of your Lordships’ House. One to which I could dedicate the entirety of this speech is how this House relates to the nations and regions of this country. In its evidence to the Kilbrandon commission in 1970, in which my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood played a part, the Scottish Liberal Party argued that,

“a second chamber could facilitate federal co-ordination if it were composed of representatives of the national parliaments elected by them in proportion to their political composition”.

In a more federal United Kingdom, with a confident Scottish Parliament, an Assembly in Wales—which is set to see its powers increase—a still-delicate devolution settlement in Northern Ireland, and the promise of a northern powerhouse, we should be considering how this House can and should relate, and be relevant, to an evolving constitutional settlement. Such a discussion should surely take place and be remitted to a constitutional convention, as has been proposed in his Private Member’s Bill by my noble friend Lord Purvis of Tweed. In spite of what the Government have said, I urge Ministers to give serious consideration to supporting that Bill. It would ensure a process that is fully representative of the nations and regions in this country, and there would be an important conversation about our constitutional future.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Has my noble and learned friend noticed that the leader of the Opposition has appointed a member of the shadow Cabinet, Jon Trickett, with specific responsibility for taking forward a UK constitutional convention?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

That is very welcome. It is not just within our respective parties but in many other parts of the House that there is a view that we should do that and look at some of these fundamental issues in a proper context.

From these Benches, our quest for a better whole will not prevent us seeking improvements in the component parts where possible. That is why I will respond positively to the invitation from the noble Baroness the Leader of the House to engage and find ways in which the Government, the Opposition and, indeed, the Cross Benches can improve the workings of this House, albeit short of the democratic mandate that I would like.

One such measure would be to end the system of hereditary by-elections to the House. As my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood said in 2011:

“I do not see that in the 21st century we can possibly stand up and say that people become Members of the British Parliament by heredity and election by three or four people”.—[Official Report, 21/10/11; col. 474.]

As I understand it, when it was introduced, the by-election system was supposed to be a temporary measure until the then Labour Government’s “second stage” of Lords reform. But like the promise of the 1911 Act, we are still waiting.

The role of patronage in the appointment of Members could be significantly reduced, with a stronger role for the independent Appointments Commission, as has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall. A more radical change to membership, but one that would be consistent with the thinking of the 2012 Bill, would be to introduce time-limited appointments rather than membership of the House being for the rest of one’s life. This would address some of the concerns of ever-increasing membership, while ensuring that membership is refreshed.

The main premise of the Motions before the House today is that, if we reduce the size of your Lordships’ House, everything will be fine. Respectfully, I profoundly disagree. There are fundamental issues to be addressed in our ever-evolving constitution, of which the role of the House is but one. I continue to believe, and make no apology for it, that democratic reform of the House would go a long way to addressing some of the criticisms that have been levelled at us in recent weeks. But in the absence of democratic reform, I undertake to work constructively with the other Benches in your Lordships’ House to improve our composition, our processes and, I sincerely hope, our reputation. However, I urge the Leader of the House, in the haste to resolve a seating shortage, please do not lose sight of the deep-rooted challenges facing this Chamber.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I feel really disappointed. We have spent about six hours today debating this really important matter. I felt that we started off with a real sense of willingness for us all to get together and see some real progress on this important issue. That is what I want to see us do. I want us to make progress in the areas where we ourselves have some control, where we can do something about it. Instead of us looking to the Prime Minister to come up with the answers, and looking for him to take control, let us make some progress. Let us have some action on those areas where we can make progress. That is what I want us to do. I give way, finally, to the noble and learned Lord, and then I will draw my remarks to a conclusion.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I am very grateful to the Leader of the House. I accept what she says, notwithstanding my party’s long-standing commitment to substantial reform. We recognise that that is not going to happen in this Parliament. She is right that we should therefore take this opportunity to work constructively to make progress, and we will enter these talks on that basis, in a constructive spirit. However, I would like the noble Baroness, having listened to the debate, to tell us what she thinks that progress will be: two years from now, will the House be smaller than it is now, the same size or a bit larger?

Tributes: Her Majesty the Queen

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, it is a privilege and pleasure to follow the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition in paying tribute to Her Majesty the Queen and, from these Benches, to add our good wishes, congratulations and, above all, thanks to Her Majesty on the occasion of her service as our nation’s longest-reigning monarch.

At the age of 61, I have lived in the reign of only one sovereign. I suspect that that puts me in a minority in your Lordships’ House. But for the majority of our fellow citizens, the Queen alone embodies what we think of and understand by the monarchy. Over the course of her reign the Queen has been a constant in the lives of the British public during a period of immense change, not just in the United Kingdom but across the globe. The Queen’s personal dedication to the Commonwealth has helped ensure a successful transition from an empire to a Commonwealth of free nations—very much a force for good in a troubled world.

The Queen has been an exemplary constitutional monarch. Her several Prime Ministers have spoken of her wisdom and valued advice. Her sense of service is not one of slavish, routine duty; rather, she gives herself fully, as if the person she is talking to—be it a visiting head of state, a civic dignitary or an individual in a crowd during a walkabout—is at that moment the most important person to her.

I am proud to be both British and Scottish and I am particularly pleased that the Queen is spending today in Scotland, taking a steam-train journey to open the new Borders Railway. On a day such as today, it is indicative of her genuine and lasting affection for Scotland, where she has always received a tremendous reception. I particularly remember 1 July 1999, when the Queen opened the newly established Scottish Parliament—an illustration of one of the many changes, some of them unimaginable in 1952, which have taken place during the Queen’s long reign, throughout which she has shown constancy and brought to her role that sense of continuity and unity.

The Queen has shared the highs of our nation’s life, including the 2012 Olympics and last year’s opening of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. On an occasion such as this, I can even bring myself to mention England’s World Cup victory in 1966. But she has also shared our lows, consoling the bereaved families of the victims at Aberfan and Dunblane, and expressing the grief and compassion of the nation.

Like the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition, I, too, think it is important that we recognise the unstinting support that the Queen has received from the Duke of Edinburgh. His dedicated service to our nation is also well worthy of a tribute.

This is not only a day on which to look back at the Queen’s remarkable reign; we should also look to the future. The Queen’s unshakeable commitment to public service throughout her 63 years and more on the Throne has ensured that we have a monarchy that is strong and relevant in a modern Britain, and where we see a remarkable degree of continuity for the future in the Prince of Wales, the Duke of Cambridge and Prince George.

On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I offer our warmest good wishes to Her Majesty the Queen on this historic occasion. Long may she reign.

Syria: Refugees and Counterterrorism

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lady for repeating the Prime Minister’s statement, which raises the most serious issues of humanity, moral obligations and national security. I would first like to ask about the refugee crisis. I think it fair to say that, until recently, many people were not even aware of the scale of the terror, the crisis and fear facing millions who have been forced to flee Syria. They are not people who want to leave their homes or their country. They are people from all walks of life, forced out in fear of their lives and those of their families. This is a defining moment for our country and for the Government.

The body of a child washed up on a beach has shocked, upset and horrified everyone, but such deaths of those abused by traffickers in seeking sanctuary is not new and has been debated in your Lordships’ House on a number of occasions. We must be strong, confident and proud in reaching out to those seeking refuge on our shores.

Among the Syrian children whom we will now take in will be the future hospital consultants at our bedsides, the entrepreneurs who will build our economy and the professors in our universities. They will also be among the strongest upholders of British values, because that has always been the story of refugees to this country, whether it was the Jewish children of the Kindertransport, including the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, or the Asian families whom I knew when I was younger, driven out of east Africa more than 20 years ago, or Sierra Leoneans fleeing a brutal civil war. The Prime Minister said last week that it would not help to take more refugees because it would not solve the problems in Syria, but that is a false choice. Helping those Jewish children was not part of our efforts to end the Second World War; helping east Asian families did not bring down the brutal dictatorships; but it was the right thing to do. It was a natural, human response.

We welcome the Prime Minister’s announcement that our country will provide sanctuary to 20,000 refugees. I appreciate that it will be over this Parliament, but can the noble Baroness reassure me on the need for urgency, because people are losing their lives today? Can I suggest that it would be helpful now to convene local authority leaders from all over the country to discuss what they are prepared for, what they are able to do to settle those refugees into their areas, and the regional and local distribution to ensure that all areas can play their part—rural as well as urban, towns as well as cities? Many local authorities have already indicated that they are keen to step forward and play their part, which is greatly to their credit. They will need reassurances on additional resources, given the level of cuts they have already faced.

The Government have said that they plan to use the international aid budget for this purpose. Why did they not just use the reserves? Ensuring that refugees can be welcomed, supported and integrated is an issue not just for local government or the Home Office but for transport, education, health, business, tourism and, as we have heard, the devolved authorities. It is an issue also for churches, community groups and so many individuals who have cried out for action from the Government. Beyond what the Prime Minister has told the other place, can the noble Baroness tell us what discussions are planned to guarantee a nationwide, cross-government strategy that will co-ordinate the efforts of those who want to help and have asked the Government to help?

We support aid to existing refugee camps. Does the noble Baroness accept that desperate conditions in those camps have contributed to far too many people risking their lives trying to bring their families to Europe, and that this reinforces the need for greater co-operation across the EU and with the United Nations?

I turn to counterterrorism, because the scale of the threat posed by ISIL is clear. We have witnessed its brutal torture and murder of British citizens abroad and the sickening attacks that it has inspired and sought to organise here at home. The security services, the Armed Forces and our police do immensely important work to try to keep us safe. It is a difficult and dangerous task, and we are grateful to them for their efforts. This is the first time that Parliament has heard of the specific operation on 21 August, when the Government authorised the targeting and killing of a British citizen in Syria, a country where our use of military force is not authorised. We understand that a meeting of senior members of the National Security Council agreed that, should the right opportunity arise, the military should take action, as the noble Baroness said in the Statement. The Prime Minister said that the action was legally justifiable under the doctrine of national self-defence because, first, the man was planning and directing armed attacks in the UK; secondly, there was no other way of stopping him; and, thirdly, the action was necessary and proportionate. The evidence on each of these points is crucial to the justification for the action. Is it significant that the Attorney-General did not authorise this specific action but confirmed that,

“there was a legal basis”,

for it? Was the Attorney-General’s advice given or confirmed in writing, and will it be published? The Statement informs us that the Defence Secretary “authorised the operation”. Why was it not the Prime Minister himself who gave the authorisation?

I want to ask the noble Baroness about the specific target of this attack, although I understand that there may be things she cannot disclose to the House. Inasmuch as she can, can she say what it was about this individual and his action that singled him out, given some of the other reports we have had? Did he represent an ongoing threat, or was the threat based on a specific act that he was plotting? Does she accept that there is a need for independent scrutiny of government action, perhaps by the CT reviewer and the Intelligence and Security Committee? Can she tell me whether they have been asked to look at this?

We are already engaged in the use of force against ISIL in Iraq. However, it is vital that the UK continue to play its part in international efforts to combat ISIL across the region. What is clear from the Statement is that, if the Prime Minister is to propose to join coalition strikes in Syria, he will return to the House of Commons for a vote on authorisation. Although your Lordships’ House will not have a vote, it may be helpful to reiterate the position as set out by the acting Labour Party leader and shadow Secretary of State for Defence on 2 July. She made it clear when she said that ISIL,

“brutalise people, they murder people, and they are horrifically oppressive”.

We will carefully consider any proposals in relation to military action in Syria that the Government bring forward, but we all need to be clear about what difference any action would make to our objective of defeating ISIL, the nature of any action and its objectives, and the legal basis. Potential action must command the support of other nations in the region, including Iraq and the coalition already taking action in Syria.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement and thank her for ensuring that there is additional time for questions from Back-Benchers today, given the level of interest in this issue. We look forward to her response.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I also thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement on these very profound and serious issues. I also endorse what the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition said—we appreciate the fact that there will be an extended period for Back-Bench questions.

Probably nothing is more important than the Government’s primary responsibility of security of the realm and its citizens. The Prime Minister acknowledges that in his Statement. Clearly, we do not have the evidence, nor would it be appropriate to share that evidence publicly, and therefore we must accept the judgment of the Prime Minster in responding to perhaps one of the most serious calls that has been made on him. However, it would be interesting to know whether this is a matter that the Intelligence and Security Committee will be able to look at.

There is also reference in the Statement to the legal basis. Having worked closely as a law officer with the present Attorney-General, I know that his judgment would be made with considerable rigorous legal diligence and bringing to bear his considerable personal and professional integrity. I do not call for the publication of law officers’ advice; that is not something that, as a former officer, I would readily do. However, the noble Baroness will remember that before the House debated chemical weapon use by the Syrian regime and a possible UK government response, and before we debated last year the position on military action in Iraq against ISIL, the Government published on each occasion a statement setting out the Government’s legal position. If it is felt possible to elaborate on what was said in the Statement by a similar note, I think that we would find that very helpful.

The images of migration that we have seen on our screens and in our newspapers over recent days have certainly touched our common humanity. There has been an outpouring of the view that we must welcome refugees, and that is one that we certainly endorse. The Statement says that,

“the whole country has been deeply moved by the heart-breaking images we have seen over the past few days”.

However, will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House tell us whether any of those travelling across Europe at the moment will be accommodated in any way by what was set out in the Statement? We have heard of 20,000 refugees—said very loudly; “over five years” is probably said more sotto voce—but these are people in camps in countries bordering Syria. That is not to dismiss what is being done in that regard, and it is welcome in as far as it goes. However, what the people in this country have been crying out about are the scenes on our television screens of people walking across Europe, fleeing terror and destitution. Yet can the Minister point to one sentence in this Statement that indicates that for those people there is some glimmer of hope that the United Kingdom will be a welcome haven?

We have a common problem and it requires a common response. There are problems in the Mediterranean, on Europe’s borders and in coming across Europe and we should be promoting a common European response. The European Union system has its failings. The Dublin system is not by any stretch of the imagination perfect, but by our stand-offish stance we seem to have forfeited any real or moral authority in being able to give the lead in trying to improve or work out a more coherent European approach to this. Will the Government commit themselves to taking a more active role in co-operating with our European partners, as well as in participating in European Union efforts on relocation?

With regard to those who are coming, we welcome the steps have been taken. Many local authorities have indicated a willingness to take refugees. The Leader of the Opposition asked what would be done to bring these local authorities together, and it would be useful to know what consultations had already taken place. What consideration has been given as to whether there should be a dispersal programme or whether it is better to keep communities together for mutual support? I do not pretend that I have the answer to that, but real issues are involved. What has been done to ensure that there are interpretation services, counselling and support services for English as a second language?

We have heard about the international aid budget being used for the first year to support local authorities, but surely in a situation such as this there is something in reserve that we could use. The Statement itself refers to holding “larger sums in reserve”. Has this been taken from the overseas aid budget for future years or has a separate reserve been taken up?

The Statement says that,

“we will ensure that vulnerable children, including orphans, will be a priority”.

Just before we went into recess, there was a report about 600 young Afghans who had arrived in the United Kingdom as unaccompanied children who were deported after their 18th birthdays because their temporary leave to remain had expired. Many had already established strong roots in the communities where they were living. When we hear about the fact that we will give priority to vulnerable children including orphans, can we have some reassurance from the Government that they will not be summarily sent back after their 18th birthdays?

We will not resolve the Syrian refugee crisis unless there is a wider resolution to the Syrian problem. What steps have the Government taken to try to promote broader engagement with countries that might not at first instance appear likely to help, such as Russia and Iran, whose engagement will be necessary if we are to get a long-term lasting diplomatic settlement and tackle some of the root causes?

There is an immediate crisis on our doorstep. There are 2 million refugees in Turkey, 1.4 million in Jordan, and over 1 million in Lebanon. According to the UNHCR, there are 60 million displaced people worldwide, 46 million of whom are assisted and protected by the UNHCR. Developing countries host 86% of the world’s refugees. While we have an immediate problem, there is a much wider global problem. We have to play our part in the funding that we have given to the UNHCR but we should be trying our best to engage more countries, such as the Gulf states and the United States of America. Are we in a position to give some leadership to look to the future and tackle the global problems that will exist? We will return time and again to this issue, I suspect, because of its global nature.

The Prime Minister said earlier this week that Britain is a moral country. I believe that. I believe from what we have seen from communities and people across the country that we are a moral country, but I rather fear that this Statement falls short of a moral response.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord for their responses to the Statement. I will start by responding to comments that were made about the refugee situation. I certainly agree with the noble Baroness about the contribution that refugees have made to this country over decades. I share her assessment of the positive aspects that we have gained as a country because of our approach to accepting refugees historically.

The noble Baroness asked me quite a few questions about this situation, including whether we would be starting off the new, expanded approach, which the Prime Minister announced today, by treating the matter as urgent. I can confirm that this is indeed urgent. The Prime Minister is right to say that accepting a specific number of refugees will not solve this crisis. We must make a contribution to assisting the people who have been affected so devastatingly in Syria. The country can be proud of what we have done over the last few years in assisting refugees who have been displaced there. Our approach to the numbers who arrive here will be very much informed by the UNHCR process. We will work very closely with them, as they are the experts in this area who will be able to advise on the people we should be accommodating. We will clearly be co-operating with local authorities and we have been in contact with the Local Government Association today. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has said, the Home Secretary and Communities Secretary will be leading a new Cabinet committee to make sure that we are co-ordinated, across government, in our proper response and in the way we support the refugees as they arrive.

The noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord asked about how the aid budget will be used to support local authorities in their efforts to assist the refugees when they arrive, and there were questions about the use of reserves. The use of the aid budget to support refugees who are given support in the UK is compliant with the rules on the use of that budget. As to whether we would use reserves to do more in this area, the Chancellor will return to this when he looks at the spending review. It is important to stress that the aid budget will increase, in monetary terms, because our GDP is increasing. As I said in the Statement, this will be used to greatest effect where we feel we can make the most positive impact. There will be discussions with the devolved assemblies, via the committee to which I have already referred.

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister spoke today to Chancellor Merkel about what he was going to announce in Parliament and she gave her support to our measures. The British Home Secretary was one of the early voices calling for the meeting of European Justice and Home Affairs Ministers which will take place next week and will look at this matter again. I made it clear in the Statement that the UK is not a party to Schengen and that we believe our approach is the right one. In answer to the specific question from the noble and learned Lord, we do not feel it is right to offer refuge in the UK to the refugees who are currently in Europe, but we want to see greater co-ordination within Europe and the countries which operate within the Schengen agreement. We will provide and continue to provide our support to Europe in making sure that its borders are properly policed. The noble and learned Lord asked a specific question about how the rules would apply to refugees when they arrive in this country. The same rules that exist now will apply.

I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for his comments about the Attorney-General, his approach to his judgment and its being compliant with international law. The noble and learned Lord and the noble Baroness asked about publication of the Attorney-General’s advice. As the noble and learned Lord acknowledged, it is not our practice to publish that advice. He also asked me whether we would publish a statement on the general legal position. There is a distinction to be drawn between when we published the legal position that was informing our proposal to take military action in Syria and Iraq, and this occasion when we are informing Parliament of action that was taken to deal with a planned counterterrorism atrocity. A distinction is to be drawn there, but I certainly will look at that.

The noble Baroness asked about the person in question and what distinguished them from others who may be proposing terrible attacks in the United Kingdom. The point to emphasise is that this person was operating in a place where we had no other option as regards the action that we decided to take. We are clear that that action was legal, proportionate, legitimate and the right thing to do.

The noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord asked about scrutiny. By making this Statement and by making himself available to answer questions today, the Prime Minister is being held to account and is subject to some scrutiny. Further scrutiny that might apply—whether that be by the Intelligence and Security Committee or the independent reviewer—is something that we would want to consider. Certainly, we accept that we have undertaken action which is new and has not happened in this way before. Therefore, it is understandable that Parliament will ask questions about the scrutiny of this action.

Proposed Changes to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I very much welcome this debate and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Butler, on coming forward with this Motion. It is not because we on these Benches do not think there is an issue to be addressed; rather, we think that the Government have gone about it in a somewhat rushed way, with little or no consideration of the possible constitutional consequences.

I heed the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, who has considerable experience in these matters, that the House of Lords ought to be cautious when we are dealing with matters that relate to the internal workings of the other place. But if these internal workings, and the manner in which the Government are going about it, have important constitutional consequences, then it is a matter for this House to have regard to as well. This is perhaps a classic example of a measure that flashes the warning sign: “Beware the law of unintended consequences”.

Many of these points have been rehearsed, but we know it will be very difficult to determine whether a clause or a schedule, to quote the draft Standing Orders, would be,

“within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament to make any corresponding provision for Scotland in an Act of that Parliament”—

that being the test for whether or not it was a matter that the Speaker could certify. It is not an easy matter to determine, as I indicated last week. When I was Advocate-General for Scotland, much of my office was looking at these matters and trying to determine where the boundaries of competence were. Indeed, I had the privilege of appearing before the Supreme Court, presided over by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, on a matter relating to the sale of tobacco products to children. Ultimately it was the Supreme Court that determined whether the matter was within or outwith the competence of the Scottish Parliament.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, said in our deliberations last week, these issues could bring the Speaker into some legal and political controversy. What if, for example, the Speaker certifies a measure as satisfying the test but subsequently the Scottish Parliament seeks to bring forward exactly the same legislation and the Supreme Court determines that in fact it was not within the competence of the Scottish Parliament? No doubt the Speaker’s certificate would be final but you would have a very difficult situation where the Supreme Court decided something that the Speaker or the Speaker’s Counsel had got wrong. As has also been said, we are treading on ground that could raise issues about Article 9 of the Bill of Rights. Even if it is not justiciable, it will not necessarily stop someone trying to make it justiciable, and all sorts of issues could arise there.

I also note that the draft Standing Orders say:

“Where either the whole House or the English, or English and Welsh, MPs do not agree to a motion relating to the Lords amendments, the amendments are not agreed and a message to this effect is sent to the House of Lords”.

We would be dealing with a situation where an amendment has been passed by your Lordships’ House—indeed, it could have been passed by the House of Commons—which, in the past, anyone would have thought had been passed by both Houses and should then go to Her Majesty for Royal Assent, but we are being told that in fact that would not necessarily lead to a measure being put forward for Royal Assent. That is an important constitutional issue. It may not affect the Standing Orders of your Lordships’ House but it has implications for your Lordships’ House.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, may wish to intervene and articulate this more, but he made an important point last week about the provisions that were added in relation to finance—that it could well be the case that the substantial part of the Government’s supply from income tax would be deemed to be a matter only for English MPs or English and Welsh MPs to determine. So you could have a situation where English and Welsh MPs could veto the supply of the majority party in the House of Commons. I am not saying that it could not be done—under these provisions it would be done—but it has important constitutional consequences. Therefore, I do not believe it is sensible to proceed piecemeal by way of Standing Orders of the other place, and that is why the proposal that has come from the noble Lord, Lord Butler, is one that I hope this House will pass and which I hope the other place will take seriously.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I have great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Butler. The solution that the Government have come up with in the other place is, to put it mildly, far from perfect. But we have one problem in this House this afternoon: we cannot establish a Joint Committee. We can express a view and say that we think that there should be a Joint Committee—personally, I would welcome that—but we can also try to ensure that the matter is referred to our Constitution Committee. I believe that there are repercussions for this House and that we have to take the issue extremely seriously.

Altering the constitution in this way, almost by sleight of hand, does no service to any of us who care about the stature of Parliament, the relationship between the two Houses and the responsibility of this House in particular. My noble friend Lady Stowell has already indicated that there will be a full day’s debate in September, which is good and welcome. But I hope that when she comes to reply from the Front Bench she will be able to go further and say that she, as Leader of the House, will personally ask the Constitution Committee of this House, which has an enviable reputation for working thoroughly and fairly expeditiously, to try to report in time for that debate—but, if not, very shortly afterwards. We are entering a legislative quagmire here and it is far more important that we get it right—here, I totally agree with the noble Lord, Lord Butler—than that we achieve it quickly.

We have had too much government by gimmick and deadline over the last year. I have quoted this before in the House: something must be done by St Andrew’s Day and something else by St David’s Day. We are playing with the constitution of the United Kingdom, in which I hope that most of us truly believe, and if we are to safeguard the United Kingdom in this new era of extra devolution, we have to safeguard the position of the United Kingdom Parliament—a Parliament in which all Members are equal.

It may well be, as I believe, that there is a very good case for reducing the number of Members from Scotland when current legislation is on the statute book, and in time for the next general election. There is precedent for that both in Scotland and Northern Ireland, but the extremely convoluted arrangement that is currently proposed is likely to create far more problems than it solves. Of course I welcome the idea of a review after one year, but I would rather that we did not go there. I urge my noble friend to give serious consideration to making a personal request to the Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ House to look at this matter very quickly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The whole House of Commons will consider amendments to its Standing Orders, and all Members of that place will contribute to that decision at that time. On the impact of what we are proposing and how legislation is considered in the other place, I would rather not get into a detailed debate now because I have offered time for that kind of discussion in September.

We want to hear noble Lords’ concerns on the risks they consider are attached to our proposals. As I say, I am not suggesting that none exist.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

The Minister has talked about the review that will take place after one year. She has no doubt heard a range of concerns of some constitutional importance. Does she think that a review of the proposals in relation to the buses Bill will give sufficient exposure to some of the concerns if we can draw any conclusions?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The noble and learned Lord touches on the exchange that took place between other noble Lords about what Bills might be affected if we were to introduce this change right now. It is fair to say that there are not that many Bills that are England-only, but there are many Bills—indeed, we are about to debate one next—that contain measures that affect only England or only England and Wales. To try to suggest that there is nothing in the Government’s programme that would not benefit from the introduction of a new regime to deliver English votes for English laws is incorrect.

As I said, we are very happy to hear about concerns that anyone may have about what is being proposed, but I put it to this House that the best way for us to do it is not through a Joint Committee of this House and another House but through the debate that I have proposed. We want Select Committees of both Houses to have an opportunity to examine our proposals. It is entirely a matter for the Constitution Committee whether it wants to look at the constitutional implications of English votes for English laws. I would not want in any way to get involved in the decisions of that committee, as it is for any committee of the other House to decide what it may want to consider.

There is an initial review by the House of Commons Procedure Committee that will feed into that first stage, when the House of Commons will consider its amendments to Standing Orders. There will be a substantial review in a year’s time. I do not think that it is right to commission yet a further piece of work from yet another Joint Committee, duplicating that work that is already under way, and which could also be used as a tool to delay what is a clear manifesto commitment from us to deliver this.

We can continue to debate and deliberate on the best way to address the West Lothian question while at the same time devolving more and more powers to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, or we can get on with testing the Government’s proposals after that initial review by the House of Commons Procedure Committee and once the House of Commons itself has decided on how it wishes to amend its Standing Orders. But I really do believe that the time has now come for us to make real progress on a matter that has gone unaddressed for so long. Therefore, I do not support the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and indeed the Government will not be able to support it either.

English Votes for English Laws

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, there is some consensus that this issue needs to be addressed, but also an equal consensus that the mode of addressing it will lead to some very unsatisfactory outcomes. It is an example, as has been said, of a piecemeal approach to the constitution, but it is an issue to be dealt with by a constitutional convention.

In the Statement accompanying the White or Green Paper—whichever colour it was—in December 2014, the right honourable William Hague referred to the Prime Minister’s Statement on the morning after the referendum, when he said that,

“a new and fair settlement for Scotland must be accompanied by an equivalent settlement for all parts of the United Kingdom”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/12/14; col. 1265.]

I do not think that this is proper equivalence.

The point was made about the concerns that certification could bring the Speaker into the courts, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said; I do not think that people would particularly want that. Much of the work of my former department in the office of the Advocate-General was to consider when Scottish Parliament legislation was passed, whether it was within the competence of the Scotland Act, and much time was spent between officials, lawyers and my old department and Scottish Government lawyers in determining whether a legislative consent Motion was required for a particular piece of legislation. It is not easy, and it is possibly an unfair burden to put on the Speaker, however well advised he will be by lawyers, and it could lead to litigation.

As the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, it is a veto, and if a veto is going to be given to what might be described as a sub-set of the House of Commons, that is not Parliament. If it is okay for English MPs to have a veto, is it not okay for democratically elected Members of the Scottish Parliament also to have a veto—in other words, for Section 28(7) of the Scotland Act 1998 to be repealed? That leads to some very important, fundamental issues about the sovereignty of Parliament.

I do not believe that it will have no effect on your Lordships’ House. It may be that we do not need to have any Standing Orders changed here, but it will have an effect. If this House passes an amendment to a Bill, which goes to the other place and which, in a double vote, is actually approved by the House of Commons but not approved by English Members of the House of Commons, we will be in an anomalous situation where a piece of legislation has been passed by both Houses but will not be sent to the monarch for Royal Assent. That is a fundamental ABC of constitutional law.

I do not think that this has been thought through. I welcome the response from the Leader of the House to some of the important issues of concern that have been raised in this debate.

English Votes on English Laws

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Thursday 2nd July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement—and what a Statement. This is an issue of major constitutional significance. Action to ensure that the voice of English Members of Parliament is heard loud and clear has to be addressed. Indeed we recognise that, with the deepening of devolution in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the need to ensure that the views of English MPs are heard is clearly important. Both the McKay commission and the former Leader of the House of Commons, William Hague, in his Command Paper reported on this issue. But what is proposed by the Government today goes far beyond what has previously been considered and reported to Parliament. These are far more wide-reaching changes, with far deeper implications, but with no proper analysis of how they will work in practice. I find some irony in the opening lines of the Statement describing the Government as both Conservative and unionist. The credibility of claims to be unionist is fading fast.

We could be forgiven for thinking that on an issue of such constitutional importance, on detail that has never even been seen, let alone considered or debated, before today, and on an issue that has such profound implications for how Parliament operates, there would be an opportunity to wisely consider legislation. Should there not be a Green Paper, a White Paper, or possibly even a Bill that would be debated in both Houses—proper effective scrutiny to ensure that any proposals not only address the fundamental principles but, equally importantly, how this could work in practice? But no; this issue, if the Government get their way, will be done and dusted within the next couple of weeks, with no consultation or any scrutinising debate in your Lordships’ House. How? This will be done merely by amending the Standing Orders of the House of Commons.

The Government have today published 20 pages of amendments to the Standing Orders of the other place. The implications of these changes are hugely significant. Given that, the noble Baroness has to address the question of why there has been no consultation or expert scrutiny outside the immediate narrow circle of the Government. Can she tell me when such constitutional proposals have been dealt with merely by amending the Standing Orders of the House of Commons? Twice in the Statement she referred to making a start on the process. This is not just a start. It will be done, dusted and finished within two weeks? With the Government’s obvious fear of any genuine scrutiny in what most of us consider would be the normal, most sensible and practical way in which to make such significant changes, the noble Baroness will have to convince your Lordships’ House that this does not have the whiff of political expediency about it.

We will all want to reflect further on the detail, given that many of the specific proposals are new and have not been considered previously. For Bills that the House of Commons Speaker certifies as England-only in their entirety, the proposals appear to be fairly clear. However, today’s Statement goes much further than that. It outlines a process of sorts where a Bill contains some proposals that are considered to be either Welsh or English. There is not time today to go into all the complexities and complications of how that would work in practice, but it is sufficient to say that there will most certainly be complexities, complications and, of course, potential for chaos. Legislation rarely divides itself neatly into geographical areas. So if the Government are no longer talking about individual Bills but apparently individual clauses in Bills, this surely creates significant scope for additional complexities—and indeed risk.

With the proposals being published only this morning, the full implications of how this will affect the work of your Lordships’ House cannot yet be fully clear. In this Chamber we press votes only when necessary. We try to effect change by working with the Government with debate, discussion and presentation of the facts. However, on issues that will be defined as English, an amendment passed by this House will be subject effectively to a double lock. Will that mean the Government will be less willing to engage on English-only issues, because in this Parliament, and generally, the other place has a majority of Conservative MPs in England, so that whatever we say or do, they could vote your Lordships’ House down?

The Statement refers to using a procedure to identify English parts of a Bill as similar to that used for certifying financial privilege. Many noble Lords will recall that Peers from across the House have had several heated exchanges over the years with the Government in recent years over their refusal to engage with amendments passed by this House and ask the Commons to reconsider—and the issue raised has been financial privilege. Does the noble Baroness have any concerns about how these proposals will affect your Lordships’ House? Unless the Government already have a blueprint or precedent of how it can be made to work in practice, should not some thought and debate have gone into these proposals?

When William Hague presented his Command Paper to Parliament, he clearly did not envisage such proposals as those being brought before us. He was clear that there were a number of serious issues to be addressed, consulted on and decisions taken. Today’s Statement bypasses any such process. Mr Hague considered how a constitutional convention could be established and the kind of issues that could be addressed. The noble Baroness would have heard in Questions today the calls from right across this breadth of your Lordships’ House on how a constitutional convention could assist the Government, Parliament and the country. Laws rushed in rarely get it right.

Finally, we have concerns at the way in which this has been announced, and that has been reflected in other measures brought before us. This has been done without consultation or apparent thought for any possible unintended consequences. It is hardly reflective of the significance of the Government’s proposals. Yesterday, I spoke in your Lordships’ House of our concerns about the Government’s approach to the Childcare Bill and our recognition of the wider implications of the Government’s approach. The Constitution Committee, even since the beginning of this Session, has described a trend since the last Parliament,

“towards the introduction of vaguely worded legislation that leaves much to the discretion of ministers”.

This, the committee states,

“increases the power of the Executive at the expense of Parliament”.

On this issue, we are told that an assessment will be conducted in 12 months’ time by the Procedure Committee in the House of Commons. But what about your Lordships’ House? Again I have to ask the noble Baroness: has she given any thought to the implications for this Chamber? Will we get any opportunity to assess any impact that it may have had on the way in which we work? We have to do better than this. If we do not do it properly, the potential risks are enormous.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. We very much welcome the fact that it is being repeated in our House, given that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said, it clearly raises wider issues that go far beyond the Standing Orders of the House of Commons.

The Statement was right to reflect on the long history of this issue, the so-called West Lothian question, and there is general agreement that we are beyond the stage where the best way to answer that question is not to ask it. There is an issue there that needs to be addressed. This is the Government's attempt to give a clear and comprehensive answer to the “English question”. The Prime Minister, when he first mentioned this on the morning after the referendum—when I very much regret that he switched mode from Prime Minister of the United Kingdom to leader of the Conservative Party—made the comparison between the position of Members of the Scottish Parliament in relation to Scottish devolved issues, and English MPs. But, of course, Members of the Scottish Parliament are elected by a system of proportional representation. I am not holding my breath in the expectation that the Government will ensure that any committee of the House of Commons will also be convened on a proportional basis. We have already seen at the outset a breakdown between the comparisons that were being made.

The Statement boldly claims:

“There will be no changes to procedures in the House of Lords”.

I echo the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Is the Leader of the House absolutely sure about that? For example, the new procedures in the Commons may well affect the overall management of the parliamentary business timetable. Ping-pong may well have to be a more measured process where an English-only or English and Welsh-only Bill, particular clauses or amendments are concerned. Will she join me, at an appropriate point, in asking the Procedure Committee of your Lordships’ House to look at any implications of the changes to the Standing Orders of the other place? In addition, when your Lordships’ House amends a hitherto English-only Bill to affect Scottish, Welsh or Northern Ireland constituents, how will the Commons deal with that when the Bill returns here?

There is also the issue of defining an English-only Bill or provision. I recall the Bill that introduced top-up tuition fees for English universities being taken through the other place. It is often held up as an example of a decision being swayed only by the votes of Scottish MPs. I was the Higher Education Minister in Scotland at the time, and I had to bring in legislation in the Scottish Parliament months later to address the consequences of that Commons vote. It is not always easy to identify a Bill with impact only in England, or only in England and Wales.

The trial period for the 2015-16 Session is welcome. Will the review then examine the provision’s success or failure? What happens if there has been only limited or no experience of its operation? The “double majority” and “English veto” introduce significant new constitutional departures, and it is important that we examine these in some detail. Of course, as the Prime Minister said, taking the comparable position—putting England in the same position as Scotland—Members of the Scottish Parliament do not have the last word if Westminster chooses to override it. Section 28(7) of the Scotland Act 1998 makes it clear that Westminster has not lost the power to legislate in regard of Scotland. However, what is being proposed here is in effect an English veto, by a Committee comprised solely of English MPs, and that is not Parliament. Parliament’s rights are being inhibited.

The question we must ask is, if what is sauce for the English goose is sauce for the Scottish gander, should the Scottish Parliament be able to veto any provision in a UK Bill that relates to devolved matters in Scotland, in the same way that this English Committee can veto any matters relating to England? When we go down that road we open up a very interesting set of issues—which may well take us toward federalism, which I would not object to. Again, however, has this been fully thought through? I hope that the Leader of the House can answer that.

The Statement refers to making a real start on the task of how, when and in what format Ministers intend to take this forward. Will there be an opportunity for this House to have a much wider debate on these issues, and in particular how they will affect proceedings in your Lordships’ House?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, first, as I said in the Statement I repeated, much has been done already to devolve more power to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. We in this Government firmly believe that it is now time to address this unfairness in England, which has existed for too long. The proposal that has been put forward by my right honourable friend the Leader of the Commons today for English votes for English laws is a pragmatic and proportionate solution to this issue, which is very much wanted by the people of England and which will address the unfairness they perceive. It is very important for us as a House to understand from the start that the changes to procedures that are being brought in through this measure are changes to procedures in, and only in, the House of Commons. This House’s procedures are not being changed by what is being introduced in the House of Commons.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said that what is being proposed today goes far beyond what was proposed before. I disagree with that. It is a very straightforward, pragmatic, proportionate response. We have simplified beyond what was in the Hague proposals, which were there for people to comment on. When my right honourable friend Mr Hague was still Member for Richmond and leader of the other House, he was at pains to ensure that a cross-party approach was adopted to consider how to address this issue. It is worth noting that when the Opposition in the last Parliament were invited to participate in that process, they declined to do so.

The noble Baroness also suggested that it was necessary to pursue this by legislative means and to introduce some pre-legislative scrutiny. As I say, this issue has been around for a long time: it has featured in my party’s manifestos for at least the last three elections. In the last Parliament the coalition Government asked the McKay commission to look at this issue, and it came forward with various recommendations. Therefore, there has been a long period of discussion and consultation.

The noble Baroness then made some points about amendments by the House of Lords and asked whether these would be, as she described it, subject to a double lock. I must emphasise—as I will continue to do during this debate—that the way we do our work in this House will not be affected by the new processes being introduced in the House of Commons. We will still have the same powers we have now, and we will amend Bills in the same way we do now. However, when our amendments go to the other place for the Commons to consider, there will be a certification process by the Speaker, consideration of those amendments will be done together in a single way, and then there will be a vote in the House of Commons. If the measures in question are certified as England-only or England and Wales-only, when the Commons divides and decides what to do, the Government will be required to listen to and seek the agreement of both the House of Commons as a whole and the English MPs, or the English and Welsh MPs if the measures apply to England and Wales. It is important to understand that English MPs cannot overrule the whole House, and the whole House cannot overrule English MPs.

The noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, asked whether the House of Lords should review these procedures once they have been in play for some time. As my right honourable friend the Leader of the Commons indicated in his Statement, the Commons Procedure Committee will review those procedures once the Bills that will be affected by them in this Session have received Royal Assent—therefore, in about a year’s time. Because our procedures are not affected, it would be unnecessary for our own Procedure Committee to carry out a review of these proposals in this House. However, clearly, when these proposals are in operation, if anything comes to light that we feel it is important to feed into the review process, I expect that we would want to do so.

Finally, I will address a point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace—although I speak to the whole House—who questioned whether what is being introduced for English MPs in the House of Commons via English votes for English laws is comparable to devolution in Scotland. It is vital that we are clear that this new measure ensures that the power and authority that all MPs in the House of Commons have right now as regards their role in Parliament is not diminished in any way. English MPs are being given a voice for the first time on matters that affect only their constituents, and their constituents want to see that happen. Therefore, this is not about taking power away from anybody, but about making sure that for the first time, when Parliament is considering matters that only affect English MPs who represent English constituencies, English voices are the ones that get heard, as they rightly should.

Tunisia and European Council

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Monday 29th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement. As the news came through on Friday lunchtime, it became almost too difficult to comprehend both the magnitude and the nature of the events as they unfolded in Sousse. Families and friends on holiday, relaxing and enjoying glorious weather and local hospitality, were thrown into murder and mayhem. I do not think any of us will ever forget the heartbreaking sight of sun loungers being used to stretcher the dead and the injured. With 18 British citizens confirmed dead and the death toll of British and other nationalities likely to rise, and with others seriously injured, the horror and fear of that day will never be erased from the memories of those who have survived. As we think of the pain and distress of families trying to find and identify loved ones we can only try to understand what they must be going through.

I concur with and support the comments of thanks to all those—the FCO staff, our police and other agencies and the locals in Sousse—who are trying their best to give both the practical and the emotional support that is needed and will be needed for many for months and years to come. The Home Secretary and the Minister with responsibility for the Middle East are in Tunisia today and they will understand the scale of the problem.

I am sure that, like me, the noble Baroness was deeply affected by the interviews with holidaymakers who, while clearly traumatised and visibly upset, said that they wanted to stay on, in recognition of the support that they had from the locals, who had helped them despite their own fears and distress. I understand that the Government are not issuing advice against travelling to Tunisia, but is any advice being provided to those who are booked to go on holiday there over the coming weeks?

Obviously many Tunisians are already worried about their futures, both in terms of security and economically. I know it is early days and I welcome the fact that discussions have been held with Prime Minister Hollande and Chancellor Merkel but have there been any further discussions with the Tunisian Government? I am thinking not just about security issues but also about economic issues, which can have a huge impact on the local economy and the national economy and will raise other issues around security.

At the European Council, security and defence were rightly high on the agenda. It is a stark reminder, as we reflect on the 10th anniversary of 7/7, that this week alone there have been deadly terrorist attacks not only in Tunisia, but also in Kuwait and France. Meanwhile, the death toll in Syria and Iraq continues to rise. The Prime Minister has rightly recognised that this violence stems from an extremist ideology which hijacks and perverts the religion of Islam, and that this must be tackled at home as well as internationally. We must challenge such extremism, whatever its origins, and champion the values of peace, freedom of speech, tolerance and equality.

The noble Baroness may be aware from debates in your Lordships’ House on the then Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill that not only must our security forces and police have the resources, the numbers and the appropriate tools to be effective but action must be community-based, and all communities have to engage with government and other public bodies in a climate of trust. She will be aware that so many within the Muslim community are challenging ideological extremism and championing the values that lead to a more tolerant and peaceful society. In their considerations of the way forward, are the Government also giving further thought to how these individuals and communities can be supported in their work?

The noble Baroness will know that your Lordships’ House has been very concerned about migration, as discussed at the European Council, both in tackling the organised criminality that fuels it and the instability in north Africa and the Middle East that leads frightened and vulnerable people to risk their lives and those of their families. One of the conclusions of the European Council meeting is:

“Further to the Commission’s European Agenda on Migration, work should be taken forward on all dimensions of a comprehensive and systemic approach”.

Is she in a position today to explain what that means in practice and what action will be taken? The same document refers to,

“the reinforcement of the management of the Union’s external borders”.

What contribution did the UK make to that discussion, given the cuts that we have seen in our UK Border Force?

Finally, on Britain’s negotiations with Europe, can the noble Baroness inform your Lordships’ House whether there will be any treaty changes before the referendum takes place? I understand the Prime Minister’s political difficulties and the sensitivities around this but it is a really important issue. How long was he given to make his case at the summit? Perhaps she can help me: we are not clear at this stage what he is negotiating for. There is even confusion among those he is negotiating with about what he is negotiating for. British citizens, who are going to be asked to vote in a referendum, are also unclear what he is negotiating for. The Prime Minister said in his Statement that this was the first stage, “to kick off the technical work” between now and December. What exactly does that mean and what steps will be taken to keep the public informed?

It is a fact of geography that we are an island nation but all these issues impact on the lives of British citizens. Whether it is terrorism in Tunisia, refugees in the Mediterranean or the economy in Greece, these problems connect us all, and if we are to genuinely address them, we must do it together.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement made by the Prime Minister. I certainly join her and the Leader of the Opposition in expressing on behalf of these Benches our condolences to those families who have lost loved ones through the senseless and brutal terrorist attack in Tunisia. Our heartfelt thoughts are with those who were injured in the attack and are seeking as best they can to recover from those injuries.

Like the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition, I think it is important to pay tribute to the heroic members of staff who went to the assistance of those who had been injured, and the holidaymakers who helped. As was acknowledged by the Prime Minister, there has been a considerable immediate response by Foreign and Commonwealth Office staff, consular officials, the police and the Red Cross. These are all very welcome.

The Leader of the Opposition also reflected on those who have expressed the view that they wish to stay on holiday in Tunisia. I certainly heard one of them on the “Today” programme this morning. I cannot help but reflect that it is the resilience of ordinary people to terrorism that will ultimately undermine the hate of terrorist organisations.

The Government have talked about a “full spectrum” of measures to support Tunisia and to address the consequences of the appalling events of last Friday. In his Statement, the Prime Minister referred to working with President Hollande of France, Chancellor Merkel of Germany and Prime Minister Michel of Belgium to help Tunisia strengthen security. That is a particularly welcome example of proper co-operation within Europe to help Tunisia. As well as shedding some light on what kind of help is in mind, perhaps the Leader of the House could also acknowledge that in addition to security measures, wider economic support will clearly have to be given to nurture what is a fledgling democracy. There are historic ties between our two countries. If democracy is to take root and flourish, it is very important that we not only give economic help—given the inevitable damage there will be to the tourist trade—but help where we can to support the institutional arrangements in Tunisia. Will the Leader of the House also update the House on what influence the Government are bringing to bear on those countries in the Middle East with which we have good working relations in order to undermine sources of funding to ISIL?

I heard the Prime Minister reported in the press today talking about the values of democracy, justice, freedom and tolerance. It will be these values that will prevail. I certainly wish to endorse that but there is an age-old balance to be struck between security and these values and freedoms that we cherish. Can I therefore have a reassurance from the Leader of the House that, in addressing the necessary measures, it will also be important not to undermine those values which we think are so important in winning the battle against the intolerance of extremism?

To return to the EU Council meeting, we have heard about the dynamics of the meeting. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, asked just how long the Prime Minister had to make his case. At the end of an eight-page communiqué issued after the meeting, there are two—or, rather, one and a half lines—that say:

“The UK Prime Minister set out his plans for an (in/out) referendum in the UK. The European Council agreed to revert to the matter in December”.

It has been reported that this was done during what in other circumstances might be described as a pit stop. Some colour on how the Prime Minister presented his case would be very welcome.

The Prime Minister’s Statement talks about both reform and renegotiation. If there is to be renegotiation of the treaty and there is treaty change, it will almost inevitably require referendums in France, Ireland and Denmark. Can the Leader of the House perhaps clarify whether the Prime Minister is expecting treaty change? Will the referendum which we are having here be contingent on those treaty changes having been approved in the referendums of those EU countries which require them under their own constitutions? Or is it just the case that the Prime Minister is not very clear at this stage whether he wants reform or renegotiation and is hedging his bets?

With regard to migrants, do the Government accept that many of those crossing the Mediterranean are fleeing war and persecution in places such as Syria and Eritrea and are forced to undertake dangerous journeys due to a lack of safe and legal routes to find protection? A key part of the response to the crisis must be to offer refugees safe routes into the EU so that they no longer have to make such dangerous journeys or have to use the appalling means of people smugglers. Given that there are now 20 million refugees worldwide, I am sure that the noble Baroness will accept that to resettle just 20,000 must only be a starting point. She talked about the Prime Minister making further commitments in Bratislava recently. By one estimate, we have so far resettled 187 Syrians. There are estimates of nearly 4 million Syrian refugees, most living in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey. Can she indicate, in the light of what the Prime Minister committed to in Bratislava, what numbers we expect to see as an increase?

Finally, I acknowledge that the United Kingdom did have and has exercised a legal right not to take part in this resettlement—the opt-out. Perhaps the Leader of the House will explain to your Lordships the moral case for that course of action.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, for their comments about the despicable act of cruelty that occurred in Tunisia last Friday. I certainly support the tributes that they have paid not just to the officials and all those involved in supporting the people and families affected but also to the Tunisians themselves. Anyone listening to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary doing her press conference in Sousse earlier today would have heard how she paid a very big tribute to everybody there and to the local people of Sousse.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned those who wish to stay in Tunisia and those who wish to continue to go on holiday there. She asked about the travel advice offered by the Foreign Office. That was updated to reflect the heightened risk of terrorist attacks post the events on Friday but, as I said in the Statement that I repeated, we are not advising against travel to that area. She also asked what further support we are providing to Tunisia for it to continue to be an attractive place for people to go on holiday to. We are doing a range of things: in an immediate sense, we are sending over relevant experts to make sure that the resorts have the security that they need; we are also looking at what is possible to support the Tunisian police to take an intelligence-led approach to policing in this area. As far as financial assistance to Tunisia is concerned, since 2011 we have already made quite a considerable contribution. We have done that through the Arab Partnership initiative, and we certainly want to look at that again in the light of events. We continue to work with all partners to ensure that we tackle terrorism at source.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned the effect of the events on the Muslim community here in the United Kingdom. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, also asked about values of democracy and what we are doing to promote our own values. I first pay real tribute to the Muslim community and its work to tackle extremism. We are working, and want to continue working, with the Muslim community to support it, and together to ensure that we are even more effective than we have been so far in addressing extremism.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, then asked some questions about the European Council and pointed specifically to the debate on the European Union’s external borders. As she knows, and as the House knows, we are not part of the Schengen agreement but we play a proper part in protecting the European Union’s borders. We contribute in quite a significant way to ensuring that the security around our borders is tight. One of the areas where we provide a lot of specific expertise is on asylum. She also asked about treaty change and the Prime Minister’s contribution during the European Council on his move to renegotiate and reform Britain’s membership of the European Union. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, asked about that too. I will say a couple of points in response.

First, it was an historic moment at the European Council on Thursday night. We have started the process to which the Prime Minister committed of Britain having a renegotiation with Europe, for reform in Europe and for us to seek a better deal for the United Kingdom. Prior to the European Council, he met and spoke to all the other European leaders. As was made clear, Thursday marked the start of this process, which will continue. He will ensure that throughout the next few months Parliament is kept informed of progress. The initial talks will be what we call technical talks at an official level. It is worth noting, for example, that my right honourable friend the Europe Minister, David Lidington, is giving evidence tomorrow to the House of Lords European Union Committee. I am sure that he will be asked about this at that time. Therefore, we will continue to keep people informed as we make progress on the start of something that the British people really want, and we will ensure that, finally, they do get their say in membership of the European Union.

As far as the questions put about Mediterranean migration and the steps on that are concerned, I say first that our contribution is very comprehensive. HMS “Bulwark” has contributed to saving 4,000 lives, as I mentioned in the Statement; 900 of those were just over the weekend. The Government have a very different view from the Labour Opposition. We are committed to a programme of resettlement of people from outside Europe—so people who are at risk in countries such as Syria and Libya. We play a big part in resettling people from those countries to the United Kingdom. However, we do not believe that it is right to follow a programme of resettlement of people who have already made the crossing over the Mediterranean to Europe. As the Prime Minister made clear in his Statement, we believe that would make the prospect all the more attractive to the gangs who create misery by promoting this as a prospect, which is not one that we believe is the right way forward. We want to support these countries with aid, and political support where that is appropriate, to make sure that they themselves—the countries that these people are seeking to leave—offer the kind of future and prosperity that all the people who live there rightly deserve. That is what we are doing and where we will continue to focus our efforts.

G7

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement on the G7 summit. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, indicated, there is much in the summit and in the Statement which can be welcomed: the further steps to promote trade deals; the ambition to set goals at the United Nations in September to eradicate extreme poverty by 2030; the steps being taken to tackle corruption; specific support for Nigeria; initiatives to fight disease overseas; support for the efforts of Prime Minister al-Abadi in Iraq to build a more inclusive Government to bring his country together in challenging ISIL. However, I remember that when the House was recalled to debate Iraq last September, there was an expectation that the new Iraqi Government would reach out to include the Sunni community. It would therefore be useful to know what encouragement and support has been given to Prime Minister al-Abadi in these intervening months to achieve that goal.

I will not follow the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and will resist the temptation to ask the Leader of the House what her immediate thoughts were when she heard the “Back Me Or Resign” headlines on Monday morning. However, if she chooses to share that with the House, I am sure that we will all be quite interested. However, does not the very fact that Downing Street had to spend time and energy throughout Monday to correct a so-called “misinterpretation” by the entire travelling media pack just illustrate the fault-line at the heart of Britain’s foreign policy? While the Government and government-led public debate at home obsess about a referendum on European Union membership, our voice is, inevitably, diminished on the profoundly serious global issues which are the focus of such summits: the Middle East, Ukraine, global climate change and the plight of refugees in the Mediterranean.

While the Prime Minister may have tried to make a robust rebuttal of claims by some US envoys that we are becoming “Great Shrinking Britain”, should it not concern all of us who believe that as a nation we can and should be a positive force in the world, punching above our weight, that the perception of some of our closest allies is that our contribution and influence are waning? It would therefore be very welcome if in answering some specific questions, the Leader of the House could give answers which, by their substance, show that we are not a shrinking Britain.

The Statement refers to Russia, Ukraine, and implementing Minsk, and to welcome commitments by the G7 which state that diplomatic efforts must succeed in restoring Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. In any future developments or negotiations, will the UK, as a signatory to the Budapest memorandum, play a full part, or, as in Minsk earlier in the year, will we leave it to France and Germany?

We welcome the long-term goals for climate change, but with regard to the bold but very welcome commitment by the G7 to decarbonise the global economy by the end of the century, how do the Government expect the UK’s commitment to be taken seriously if persistent rumours materialise that the Energy and Climate Change Secretary will announce restrictions of the renewables obligation for onshore wind developments currently in the planning stage? The Prime Minister’s Statement referred to businesses having the confidence to invest in low-carbon technology, but what signals will be sent to potential investors in new renewables projects such as wave or tidal power if the Government can change the support regime at such short notice?

Finally, it is right to pay tribute to those, including those on HMS “Bulwark”, who are engaged in humanitarian rescue missions in the Mediterranean, and right to acknowledge the measures agreed at the G7 which address that issue, including the backing for UN-led efforts to put in place a national unity Government in Libya. However, surely a far more fundamental approach will be required to address the underlying causes of why people are fleeing their homes. Can we look to the United Kingdom Government to give leadership in the G7 and other forums to pursue initiatives which, in their magnitude, match the scale of the problem?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I start by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, on her election as Leader of the Opposition in this House. This is the first opportunity that I have had to do so from the Dispatch Box. Regarding both her comments and those of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, on Europe and their questions about the European referendum—to which my party has been committed for a long time and in which it is pleased that, following yesterday’s historic vote in the House of Commons, there will now be an opportunity for all the people of this country to participate—I say to them that it is ironic that they are now asking me questions about that when only about a month ago they did not wish to support that opportunity for everybody. They know very well that our manifesto commitment is that the Prime Minister will negotiate for reforms in Europe that are in the interests of the UK and, indeed, of Europe. All of us in government are signed up to that commitment, and when the Prime Minister has concluded his negotiations he will put a question to the United Kingdom for the people to decide in the in/out referendum. We very much support that process, which has now started.

I should correct the noble Baroness. Boris Johnson attends the political Cabinet; he does not attend the Cabinet in the normal sense of the word.

Moving on to the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, made about Europe distracting the Prime Minister in some way in his contribution to the discussions at the G7, I would say: far from it. In all the discussions over the two days in Germany, the Prime Minister was very much able to show that the UK is both setting the agenda and leading the way on some of these very important issues.

I am grateful for the support that I heard from both opposition Benches for what we are doing to ensure that sanctions against Russia are very much in place. The noble Baroness asked me about the European Council in June. We will most definitely be seeking the full rollover of those sanctions. The Minsk agreement is not fully implemented and the sanctions will remain in place until it is. If Russia were to extend its aggression, we would certainly consider the extension of sanctions, but the first aim is to make sure that we get them rolled over while Minsk is not being implemented.

The noble Baroness asked about the effect on some of the countries that are imposing sanctions and what actions might be taken to support them. We need to be quite careful about singling out individual countries in that way, because the whole purpose of imposing these sanctions is to show that the rest of us want to abide by the collective rules that apply across the world. If we impose sanctions on somebody who has broken those rules, we do so knowing that there is a cost to us but it is one that we are willing to bear. The principle of maintaining the fundamental international rules is so important that when somebody breaks them we are willing to take some cost. However, the bigger cost is on Russia with the sanctions that it is now having to cope with.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, for the support that they offered today for what the UK is doing in our campaign regarding ISIL in Iraq. In that context, there were certainly questions from both about what more we are doing to encourage and ensure that Prime Minister al-Abadi moves his Government towards becoming more inclusive. That is something that we pursue at all levels, and the signs are clearly that he is seeking to achieve that himself. We are giving support to Iraq so that the Iraq armed forces are in a strong position to be deployed against ISIL. We are training them up to do the necessary work in their own sovereign territory.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about TTIP, the EU and US trade deal, and specifically whether the National Health Service would be protected. I can give her an absolute guarantee on that. Over the last few months, there have been commitments, guarantees and clarifications from both the current relevant European Commissioner and his predecessor. Given that this trade deal is so important to the prosperity of this country and so many others, I would urge that, rather than focusing on the potential risks associated with TTIP, which do not exist, a better approach would be for us to unite in support of applying some pressure to America to sign up to the deal.

There were questions on climate change. Our view is that the terms of the climate change agreement that we are seeking to achieve in Paris will be legally binding and we will continue to press for that. We very much believe that there are real benefits to the economy from making sure that we take a leading role in this area and that there are real threats from climate change that need to be properly dealt with.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked me specifically about an Oral Question and Answer between the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and my noble friend Lord Faulks. I do not have the specific detail to hand, so, if I may, I will have to come back to her on that. However, the point I was making by referring to FIFA in repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement is that FIFA is an illustration of how corruption needs to be tackled. It was the Prime Minister who put this on the agenda in Germany and the House might like to know that in the light of the discussions at the G7 at the start of the week, the Japanese Prime Minister has agreed to take that forward into his presidency next year.

As I say, this is something on which we are setting the agenda and leading the way. We are making good progress in all these important areas.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Wednesday 27th May 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, it is indeed a pleasure to echo the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in her praise for the very able proposer of the humble Address: the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley of Nettlestone. I start by thanking the noble Baroness for her gracious acknowledgement of the contribution that my party and colleagues made in government over the past five years: that in 2010 we stepped up to the plate and took responsibility. What she said was very much appreciated.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said, the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, has had an interesting, varied and distinguished career. I note in particular that she is still a trustee of the Economist newspaper. She quoted some historic editions of that esteemed publication but it would be remiss of me today not to mention a more recent verdict that it made ahead of the general election. It said that the risk of a Tory Government was an EU exit, and concluded that,

“the best hope for Britain is with a continuation of a Conservative-led coalition”,

with the Liberal Democrats. While coalition government is certainly not in the immediate thinking of my colleagues in the other place, I assure the noble Baroness that she is always welcome to join us in the voting Lobbies on issues such as Europe and voting reform, which the Economist praises so highly.

The Motion on the humble Address was seconded most ably by the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein. He is of course a remarkable and compelling writer, which was clearly evident in his response to the gracious Speech today. But I cannot help but note the noble Lord’s article in today’s Times on the death of the Liberal Democrats, to which he referred. I would simply say to the noble Lord, to misquote the great Mark Twain, that, “reports of our death have been greatly exaggerated”. Of course, Mark Twain also said that to,

“succeed in life you need two things: ignorance and confidence”.

I say with great fondness to the noble Lord, whose Twitter account I started to follow only last week, that he made a very confident speech today.

It is also a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, this afternoon, and I hope there will be further opportunities in your Lordships’ House at a later stage to pay a more fulsome tribute to her. On behalf of my colleagues, I should say that we believe that she has been of great service to this House, both as Leader of the House and Leader of the Opposition. We wish her well, and we know that she will continue to campaign for and champion the causes that mean so much to her.

I express my personal congratulations to the Leader of the House, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, on her continuation in office, and quite properly at Cabinet rank. She has proven herself to be a well-liked and capable Leader of this House, meticulous in her attention to detail and scrupulous in her desire to represent the interests and views of the whole House. I wish her every success in this role in what I suspect will be a very different Parliament from the last one.

I counted it a real privilege to be Deputy Leader of your Lordships’ House and to work closely with the noble Baroness and her predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Oareford. I particularly want to congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on becoming Deputy Leader of this House; he is a paragon of calm in what I am sure will sometimes be stormy waters. Before working with the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, as Deputy Leader, we worked closely together as we steered the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill through your Lordships’ House. I am sure she agrees that it is one of our proudest achievements in ministerial office in the coalition Government.

It is an honour and a privilege to be in government, and I remain proud of the progressive liberal changes that my party helped to bring about in the last five years, which I believe made this country fairer. But there can be no doubt from the election campaign and the results that followed that this is a very difficult time for the Liberal Democrats. It is also a dangerous time for liberal democracy. Liberal British values of tolerance, generosity and moderation are under threat as never before, just when they are most needed. The rise of nationalism that we are seeing both in England and in Scotland, with the divisions that it provokes and the fear that it promotes, is the antithesis of freedom, liberty and equality—everything that I believe in and everything that my party stands for. If I can believe it, I am pleased that the gracious Speech made clear that the Government’s intention is to be a one-nation Government. However, given the way in which they sometimes stoked fear of the SNP to win their majority, one sometimes wonders which nation. I echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said: we will work with the Government to ensure that we secure the integrity of the United Kingdom, because I fundamentally believe that we are better together.

Therefore, I welcome the announcement of a Scotland Bill in the gracious Speech, based on the Smith commission proposals. Honouring commitments made to Wales and Northern Ireland is equally important. So, too, is the welcome but still insufficient commitment to devolution in the north. But, as many noble Lords mentioned in debates in the last Parliament, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said today, there needs to be coherence to our constitutional developments. The time has surely come for a major, cross-party constitutional convention, to find a new resting point for British politics and a new settlement for our nations, our regions, our cities and our people. This Parliament has the opportunity to be the one that creates a new, lasting settlement for our country,

It should come as no surprise that we are disappointed by much of the content of the gracious Speech. The Government’s agenda set out in the gracious Speech smacks of a party set to fight the battles of the past, and possibly to repeat some of its mistakes. We have heard much in recent days about this being the first gracious Speech of a majority Conservative Government in almost 20 years. The pity of it is that they seem intent on taking up just where they left off. The European Referendum Bill is the latest manifestation of efforts to paper over cracks in the Conservative Party. There is almost no greater example of our nation’s commitment to being an open, internationalist country than our membership of the European Union. We can and should be at the forefront of shaping the EU. To put that in jeopardy, particularly at a time when our economy is still fragile, is not the forward-looking agenda that we on these Benches wish to see. Instead, it would be better to look at how we can work with our European allies, within the European Union, to tackle the challenges of the next generation, particularly climate change. Instead of an EU referendum, a forward-looking gracious Speech would have seen Bills to create a zero-carbon Britain, where green energy and green industry can thrive. When the EU referendum Bill comes to your Lordships’ House, I can assure your Lordships that we shall give it the thorough scrutiny that is this House’s hallmark.

The gracious Speech is also notable for the omission of firm legislative proposals for the repeal and replacement of the Human Rights Act. It sometimes makes me wonder whether it was a Conservative manifesto commitment made as a chip to be bargained away in a potential coalition negotiation. The former Attorney-General described last autumn’s Conservative proposals as “unworkable” and as containing “a number of howlers”, so no wonder they have now hit the pause button. Colleagues on these Benches will certainly scrutinise robustly whatever consultative proposals emerge in the weeks ahead. In addition, we will be advocating a new Bill of Rights—a digital Bill of Rights—which will help safeguard and protect our citizens online and ensure that the rights enshrined in British law in 1998 hold true as we enter a world full of new technology that does not respect national boundaries.

Obviously, there are some Bills that are to be welcomed in the gracious Speech. Measures to expand childcare, increase the personal allowance, increase apprenticeships and address issues of mental health are all welcome, not least because they are measures whose genesis lies on these Benches rather than with the Prime Minister’s policy team. However, all will be undermined if the ideological drive for spending cuts undermines many of these proposals. Measures to tackle coasting schools are all well and good, but not when the Government plan to cut billions from the schools budget, which we on these Benches wish to see protected. Too often we see a backward-looking agenda from a party that seems to want to fight the grievances of the past rather than to look forward to innovation and new ideas.

I conclude by talking briefly about the conventions of your Lordships’ House. Much has been written in the days since the election—indeed, this was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein—about the predicament in which the Government now find themselves here and the importance of the Salisbury convention. It is of course right and proper that we uphold the measures that allow our revising Chamber to remain a self-regulating House. I do not question the right of the House of Commons and a Government who command its confidence to have their legislation dealt with in a constructive manner by this House. However, we may wish to reflect on the strength of the mandate of a Government who secured less than 37% of the popular vote on a turnout of 66% should they seek to drive through ill-thought-through and reactionary legislation without the robust scrutiny and proper checks and balances provided by your Lordships’ House. The House and the Government would do well to remember that the report produced under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, Conventions of the UK Parliament, recognised the right of this House, in extreme and exceptional circumstances, to say no. The importance of the House of Lords retaining the right to say no is that that is the power which brings the Government to the table in a constructive frame of mind. Indeed, Ministers would be wise to heed the words of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, in his evidence to the Cunningham committee, when he said that,

“where a government is trying to push through some very unpopular measure with a very, very small majority, with a substantial government rebellion, I think it is a clear signal for the House of Lords to take extra special care in examining that measure”.

This House has demonstrated time and again that we can be the last bastion of defence of civil liberties and human rights. On these issues in particular, this House has a legitimate right to question the excesses of any Government. It has the right vigorously to scrutinise and revise legislation.

On 15 May, the Guardian said of the Liberal Democrats: “Missing them Already”. I can assure your Lordships that, in the key debates and legislative scrutiny which take place in your Lordships’ House in this Parliament, we have no intention of being missing in action.

Iraq

Lord Wallace of Tankerness Excerpts

Friday 26th September 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)]

My Lords, I start by associating myself with the noble Lord, Lord Bach, in thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate. There is probably nothing more serious than inviting Parliament and your Lordships’ House to consider issues of substantial military action. The benefit of your Lordships’ House is that a huge reservoir of expertise can be brought to bear in debates such as these, as well as political, military, diplomatic and a wide range of community and civic knowledge and experience. It has been a very serious debate, and I am very grateful to all those who have taken part. As my noble friend Lord Alderdice said at the beginning, while the other place will take the actual decision on a Motion, your Lordships’ House can consider the wider questions and proffer constructive advice to Her Majesty’s Government. That is very much what we have seen.

I welcome the fact that, with only a few exceptions, there has been widespread support for the proposal that the Government are putting in their Motion in the House of Commons. That is very welcome, particularly if it is passed on to those who will go into operation, so that they know they do so with widespread backing from Parliament.

I do not want to elaborate on the sheer abhorrence and barbarity of ISIL because that has been said by many who have contributed to the debate. While in no way minimising or detracting from other expressions of that barbarity, important points were made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean and Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, about the particular venom and violence directed towards women. That puts very graphically the nature of those with whom we are dealing.

My noble friend Lord Alton asked about the International Criminal Court. My understanding is that any decision to refer those who perpetrate such barbarity to the International Criminal Court must be made on the basis of what would be the most effective means to bring the perpetrators of such atrocities to account. Iraq is not party to the ICC so any referral would need to be through the UN Security Council. However, I can assure the noble Lord that we will continue to look at every available option to ensure accountability and to work with our international partners on what can best be done to assist victims and bring those responsible to justice.

A number of noble Lords said that ISIL is not an enemy that can be negotiated with. While diplomacy has a major role to play in strengthening the regional alliances that are essential for the stability of the Middle East, no diplomatic deal can be done with ISIL. Left unchecked, it will continue its advances in the region and continue to intensify its fight against the West, including with attacks on European soil. We reach for military action not as the first port of call, but as a last resort. It is important to recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, said, that we do this with our eyes open. That was reflected by many who contributed to the debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Desai, said, this will take time. It would be very naive to assume, if there were to be air strikes this weekend, that it would all be finished by Christmas. We have to be realistic about this.

We also recognise that we are engaging in this not in isolation, but as part of a broader coalition, including the Arab states. It is a coalition that is in the service of the Iraqi Government. The targets of our air strikes will be carefully selected and with a clear aim: to help the legitimate authorities in Iraq to destroy ISIL. I cannot agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that we are somewhat late to the party. The United Kingdom Government have taken other actions. We have been very much at the fore of getting United Nations resolutions to try to cut off streams of funding to ISIL. During the recent NATO summit in Wales we were very much leading the discussions and considerations as to how we could build up coalitions.

The coalition is involved not only in military strikes, but in providing arms to Iraq and the KRG. It includes a wide range of countries—for time, I will not list them all. There are those that give other assistance, including humanitarian aid, or take action to tackle ISIL’s financing and foreign fighters. It is a coalition of 60 nations. Looking very specifically at how this is working, I am advised by my noble friend Lord Astor that one of the planes the UAE contributed to the military strike in Syria earlier this week had a female pilot. It is interesting that there are things that might have been thought unthinkable in how different interests and countries bring what they can to bear against ISIL.

The noble Baroness, Lady Symons of Vernham Dean, asked about China. There was a UN Security Council resolution this week, which was not in any way opposed by China, that recognised the threat of terrorism from organisations, including ISIL.

The noble Lord, Lord Reid of Cardowan, was absolutely right when he said that we require a strategy that goes beyond military capability. If all we were bringing to the debate today was military action in the form of air strikes, I think we would be on weak ground. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, in opening for the Opposition, made a measured and constructive speech. He talked about the need not only for a military action but for one that is supported as part of a wider diplomatic and political humanitarian approach. That is very much what we believe is necessary here. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, said that military action must be part of a wider political strategy. And of course, as I have mentioned, diplomatic efforts are being made. I have already mentioned specifically what would be done in the United Nations to try to ensure that effective action will be taken to stem the financial flow to ISIL, but the political context in this case is very important as well.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the change of Government in Iraq from Mr al-Maliki’s Administration to the one with Mr al-Abadi. It is important to recognise that the new Government include appointments from the country’s main Shia, Sunni and Kurdish communities. My understanding is that when my right honourable friend the Prime Minister saw Mr al-Abadi in New York on Wednesday, he urged him to reach out to all communities, and notably to Iraqi Sunnis and Kurds. He has committed to reforms, including decentralising power, reforming and restructuring the security forces and improving relations with Iraq’s neighbours. He has announced a series of measures to reach out to the Sunni communities, including reform of the judiciary and security forces, and has already brought back into government some who opposed Mr al-Maliki’s divisiveness. That is an encouraging start, but I think everyone recognises that it is just that: a start. We must look to the new Iraqi Government as they deliver change and build trust so that they can unite against the threat they face. It would also be fair to say that no amount of military equipment or training can assist a military force that does not have political cohesion, a clear direction and a common purpose. I therefore believe strongly that a political settlement is a key part of the solution to this crisis.

Closely linked to that is a point that was expressed very well by my noble friend Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, who has experience, having been to the region. Part of this is building up an infrastructure. It is about water supplies, electricity supplies, health provision and education. It is important to recognise that the initial humanitarian response that was requested by the Iraqi Government earlier in the summer has resulted in an important contribution of life-saving aid being made. I take the point made by my noble friend about looking again at more specific humanitarian aid being directed towards Iraq, and I will ensure that it is brought to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Development.

For the wider area and Syria, the United Kingdom Government have allocated £329 million to partners providing humanitarian assistance. We have provided support to Lebanon and Jordan. One of the specific initiatives that I would like to draw to noble Lords’ attention is that more than 6.6 million children across Syria and the wider region are in need because more than half of them are out of school. There is a fear about a lost generation of Syrian children who have experienced trauma and displacement. We have seen the No Lost Generation initiative increase support for education, psychosocial support and protection for Syrian children. The United Kingdom is supporting organisations in Syria and the region in this. That is the kind of initiative that is important and must be seen as part of the effort. None of this alone is the solution; it must be part of an overall diplomatic, political and humanitarian approach.

The question of Syria came up on a number of occasions. Perhaps I may reiterate what my noble friend the Leader of the House said in opening the debate. The Government’s position is that we believe that there is a strong case for the United Kingdom to join in international action against ISIL in Syria, because ISIL must be defeated in both Iraq and Syria. We expressed our support for the air strikes conducted by the United States and five Arab nations against ISIL in Syria.

However, the proposal and Motion before the House of Commons today relates to the action that we as a country propose to take in Iraq. I reiterate that the Government will return to the House of Commons for a separate decision if we propose to take military action against ISIL and Syria. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, and others, including the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Bach, asked about your Lordships’ House. Having recently discussed this on the Bench with my noble friend, I think it is inconceivable that, after a decision of that magnitude has been taken in the House of Commons, this House would not also have an opportunity to express a view similar to the way that we have done today. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, indicated, this is different inasmuch as we have been recalled, and I am sure that if there are events when we are sitting, there will be an opportunity for the Government to be held to account, as well as opportunities for the Government to keep the House informed of developments.

Some things have been said about co-operating with the Syrian authorities. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, President Assad is part of the problem and not part of the solution. His actions in Syria have driven many people into the arms of organisations such as ISIL. However, we believe that there is a role for us. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, also asked about the Geneva initiative. We believe that an inclusive political settlement in Syria is very pressing to bring together all Syria’s communities. A lasting political settlement has been our aim. The new United Nations special envoy, Staffan de Mistura, recently made his first visit to the region and we certainly support his efforts to bring about a political solution. We believe that the Geneva II talks failed because President Assad indicated that he was not willing to negotiate seriously with the Syrian opposition, but I assure the House that we will give such support as we can to the efforts being made by the new UN special envoy.

I was asked about Iran. The statement that we issued after the Prime Minister met President Rouhani on Wednesday this week was that the Prime Minister and the President noted the threat posed to the whole region by ISIL and agreed that all states in the region must do more to cut off support for all terrorist groups, including financial support. The Prime Minister welcomes the support that the Iranian Government have given the new Government of Iraq and their efforts to promote more inclusive governance for all Iraqis. He argued that a similar approach was needed in Syria to promote a transition to a new Government capable of representing all Syrians.

With regard to Turkey, it is a great tribute to the Turkish authorities that 847,000 refugees have entered Turkey, including 130,000 in the last week alone. This Government very much welcome Turkey’s generosity and the challenge it has taken on in hosting refugees, and we would certainly urge Turkey to keep its borders open.

Finally, one of your Lordships said that if we do not take action in the streets of Iraq, we will deal with the problem on the streets of the United Kingdom. My noble friend the Leader of the House indicated in her opening speech a number of the actions and initiatives that the Government are pursuing and intend to pursue to improve our homeland security. For example, we will obviously want to give serious consideration to observations, recommendations and advice from the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson QC. However, a number of those who contributed to the debate—not least the noble Lord, Lord Bach—drew attention to the fact that many Muslim people hold many positions in, and contribute widely to, our community and to what is strong and good in the United Kingdom. We must make sure that when we undertake any actions, we recognise that there are indeed many British Muslims who have spoken out against ISIL. That is exemplified by the Not In My Name initiative—a campaign which has been pursued very widely. As my noble friend Lord Paddick said, Islamic terrorism is a contradiction in terms.

These are very difficult times for the Muslim community in Britain. One can readily understand why people get angered and dismayed by the way in which their religion has been perverted by violent extremists and by the way the word “Islam” can be heard every night on the TV in the context of brutal atrocities. It would be unacceptable to see any rise in Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. However, that is what organisations such as al-Qaeda and ISIL want to foment. They are determined to engineer hatred and division between people of different faiths and none. Let us be very clear. Islam is a religion of peace, it is welcome in Britain, and it is entirely compatible with the British way of life and our values. It is important that we make that abundantly clear.

Finally, there is the question of ideas, which the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury raised in his contribution, and which was echoed by other noble Lords in our debate such as the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, and others. They said that we must have a competing vision to that offered by ISIL. That is not just a matter for government; it goes much wider than that, to the religious faiths and to our community at large, and we will not solve it in a four or five-hour debate on a Friday afternoon. However, it is fundamental that we offer something that is seen to be much more compelling, which people feel that they can adhere to and want to champion, rather than the barbarity and the distorted and depraved values that people are so regrettably going to Syria and Iraq to champion. That is a challenge to all of us.

Again, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed. I apologise that in a relatively short time I did not have the opportunity to pick up on every point. I will say in closing only that while it may be presumptuous to anticipate the result of the Division at the other end of our Palace in just over half an hour’s time, the expectation is that the Motion before the House of Commons will be carried. With that in mind, we wish our service men and women, who will be acting in operations as a result of that, every success. They go with our best wishes.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!