Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Lord Tyler
Whether or not they are the origin of the Bill that is before us, I think the noble Lord will recognise that there are authorities in the country—he and I could both name them—where the fact that one party has controlled it for ever and a day without effective scrutiny or opposition has not been conducive to good governance. Again, as Robin Cook said—and I worked very closely with him—good governance requires effective scrutiny and good opposition.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab)
My Lords, is that not the privilege of the local electorate? If they choose to return a particular colour of politics, that is their choice. Is the noble Lord not saying that he would overrule that choice in the name of some abstract transparency that is easily available through other means?
Lord Tyler
My Lords, that is nonsense. The noble Baroness should simply look at what has happened in Scotland. We now have a practical example. There no longer are these one-party states in Scotland. There are now far more effective local authorities as a result.
Local Government Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Tyler and Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Lord Tyler
My Lords, I had not intended to participate in this debate, but I am moved by the eloquence of the Howarth-Hollis panegyric in favour of county unitary status, as that seems to be the sheer thread of their argument: unitary authorities—county unitary authorities, rather than city unitary authorities—avoid the duplication that has been referred to at such length.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, let me clarify one point. I spoke of unitary authorities, especially for cities. I do not have a particular commitment to what may happen in very large rural counties. I repeatedly made the point that I was talking about city services.
Lord Tyler
But the argument advanced by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord was much more applicable to counties.
I was a member of Devon County Council in the long-distant past, when I was very young—I was 22. I then had the experience of seeing the County Borough of Torbay taken out of Devon. It was disastrous both for Torbay and for Devon. More recent experience that I have had would be more applicable and relevant to this debate. As a member of the board of the Devon and Cornwall Business Council until relatively recently, I was struck by the extent to which businesspeople in Exeter saw the value in the long term of a unitary authority for the whole county of Devon because Exeter is the county town of Devon. It is the natural centre, culturally, socially and economically, and has an amazing effect on the whole network of relationships in Devon. I speak not from personal experience of Norwich, but I think that my noble friends from that area would agree that it is similar in terms of being the county town of Norfolk. That may not be the case with other unitary authorities in other parts of the country.
What I am absolutely clear about is that, in the terms set out by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, we are where we are. To reopen the issue at this stage as the duet have encouraged us to do would be absurd, entirely inappropriate and against the decision taken by this House just a few weeks ago. Certainly, it would be against the mandate given to both parties in the coalition just a few short weeks ago.
There is a case for more unitary authorities. It was advanced extensively and deliberately for the county of Cornwall in recent months and I think that it will prove a success, but that was in different economic circumstances. To reopen this issue in the terms that the noble two over the way have suggested, at this stage, with this particular amendment, seems to me totally irrelevant and to show disrespect for the procedures of this House. It may be that in future there will be another case for looking again at local government in Devon and Norfolk. If so, we would need to look at the relative economics of a unitary authority for the whole of those counties—I am sure that this applies for the business communities in both counties—rather than simply reopening the issue of the status of Norwich and Exeter. But that is for the future. As far as today, this Bill and these amendments are concerned, I think that we should move on.