Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Rosser

Wednesday 24th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I have a general objection to Front-Benchers speaking from the Back Benches, but this is a subject area close to my heart. With my noble friend Lord Rosser I was part of the team which represented the Opposition during the passage of the 2011 Act. I hope that the noble Lord might be able to give us a more colourful picture of where things stand as this would seem to be an important step in the progress towards the powerful management of alcohol within the forces. I read it as an important step forward and, as such, I welcome it.

I have been involved in the world of work and alcohol since I learnt to fly in a university air squadron in the 1960s. We were still in the grip of a post-war tradition; alcohol and being part of the force were closely linked. Yes, you did not fly when you had been drinking, but virtually all the rest of the time, every evening, alcohol was part of that world. That was true in my early career as a pilot—once again, we had rules about drinking—but in the industrial relations world I lived in an enormous amount of business was done in an alcohol environment. I went into the oil world and the situation was the same. There was nothing special about me. I cannot claim that I did not enjoy it. That was the world we lived in. If you were trailing jet fuel you drank over dinner and in many social situations. It was how business was done. Looking back on it, it was wrong, in the sense that alcohol modifies how you make judgments and decisions, and you make better decisions when alcohol is averred. However, it is very difficult to change cultures where these behaviours are the norm.

I came into the railway industry in the late 1980s, and that had an alcohol tradition, for want of a better way of describing it. Public opinion came along and said, “This isn’t right”. We had the same situation, although, of course, staff would assure one that they were not under the influence of alcohol when they came to work. However, public opinion wanted something more, and we, as the management, saw that grasping that general direction was the right thing to do. Yes, a piece of legislation came along, but we had a very successful engagement with our trade unions, which saw that this was what society expected, and we introduced drug and alcohol testing. To say that it was traumatic would be too strong, but it was a shock to the industry. We drove alcohol out of the front line of the industry. It is interesting that we then recognised how we in the management, who did not have “critical responsibilities” at the time, had to follow suit. We had to set an example.

This will be, if I read it right, a shock to the services. It will need to be handled very sensitively by the chain of command and it will need a lot of help in terms of training, and so on. In aviation, it is interesting that you cannot even get a private pilot’s licence now without passing a paper which, although it is not called “alcohol management”, is all about being fit for duty and so on. That culture will become widespread, and it will seep upwards. Officers, including senior officers, will recognise that they have to set an example.

I hope that we get this right. It is important that the Armed Forces do not feel “done to”, and that they recognise the value of a change of culture. I am not suggesting that they have not been changing their culture, but this specification is very clear and makes the direction of travel absolutely clear. It will require some people to modify their behaviour, including management and leadership style. I commend the Government and the leadership of the Armed Forces for bringing forward this measure. I hope that its introduction is smooth and successful and that we can get across to the Armed Forces that it is a change that is good for them and for their safety and will be good for the long-term health and culture within the Armed Forces.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, it is interesting to note that there are now as many officials in the Box as there are Members of your Lordships’ House present. We have no issues with either of these measures. Debating the continuation order is an annual event, because, as the Minister said, it is necessary to enable the Armed Forces Act 2006 to continue in force for a further year, rather than expiring on 2 November this year. It would therefore be entirely legitimate, in a debate on that order, to raise just about any issue relating to our Armed Forces. However, I shall go to the other extreme and say very little. I raised in a debate on an earlier continuation order the question of whether, if the order were not passed, that would mean that there was no statutory basis or parliamentary authority for our Armed Forces, and the Minister responded to me on that point in writing at the time.

The Explanatory Memorandum refers to the recently introduced single system of service law. We recently had a debate on an order that provided for a reduction in the number of lay members sitting on a more serious case, and having to pass sentence where the defendant was pleading guilty. I raised a number of questions, to which the noble Lord has also responded to me in writing. I thank him for his usual and continuing courtesy, and the trouble he takes to reply to the points—at times not an insignificant number of points—raised both from this Dispatch Box and by other Members of this House.

I may come back to the Minister on his reply on courts martial and officers who are lay members, largely to seek further information about how the lay members are selected and what prior training they have had. I acknowledge the parallel with a civilian jury, who determine guilt or otherwise, and who have had no prior training—but that does not apply to those who pass sentence. If I decide to explore that point further, I will initiate the process either through a written question or by writing to the Minister.

On the continuation order, I conclude by expressing appreciation and gratitude to our Armed Forces for the vital work that they do—often, as we all know, at considerable personal risk to their well-being, and sometimes at the cost of an all too real personal sacrifice—to protect our nation and provide us with the level of security needed to establish and maintain a civilised and peaceful society.

We welcome the Armed Forces (Alcohol Limits for Prescribed Safety-Critical Duties) Regulations. There are a few points that I would like to raise and comments that I would like to make. As my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe said, attitudes towards excessive drinking have changed in recent years, and its unacceptability and potential consequences both for the drinker and for those with whom they come in contact directly or indirectly are more widely acknowledged. We have seen changes in culture, particularly in the field of work and employment, including the transport industry.

I well remember some years ago being at a lunch attended by many, in a London hotel, and sitting at the same table as a number of senior British Rail managers. On tables all around us, some alcohol was being consumed. The senior British Rail managers had none. They would all be back at their jobs in the afternoon, and thus on duty. Being on duty having recently consumed alcohol was no more permitted for them than it would be for someone on the front line driving a train or maintaining signalling equipment. Will the Minister indicate whether the alcohol limits we are talking about in this order will in reality if not through this order apply to senior military personnel, including at the very highest level of our Armed Forces? They, too, make decisions which can have a profound impact on those they command, including on their safety, as well as on the security of this country, and on costs and finances. The fact that the impact of the decisions that they make may not always become obvious immediately should in no way detract from the requirement that, when they make those decisions, they should be in a completely fit state to do so.

The regulations provide for two maximum levels of permissible alcohol intake, one being much lower than the other. It would be helpful if the Minister could say why it has been felt desirable to have two different levels, rather than simply one—namely, the lower level—which would apply to all those duties listed here being undertaken. They are all safety critical, and judgment and reactions can be impaired by alcohol. I assumed something that the Minister confirmed, that the reason there is not zero tolerance in respect of alcohol limits is that it appears possible for two people who have had, or, more relevantly, have not had, alcohol, to produce different readings which, certainly in respect of meeting a zero tolerance standard, could result in an injustice. If, however, we are to have two different levels of alcohol limits related to the duties being undertaken, it would be helpful if the Minister could say perhaps a little bit more than is in the Explanatory Memorandum about the kind of criteria used to determine which duties should fall in which category of maximum acceptable alcohol limits.

I certainly have no intention of asking the Minister to explain why each duty listed in the order has been put in the category shown in the order, except for one particular case. Carrying out duties as a diver is shown in the higher alcohol limit category; so, too, is the duty of supervising a diver. My understanding is that, if a problem arises for a diver, the actions and decisions taken, and speed of those decisions taken by the person supervising that diver, can literally be the difference between life and death. I simply ask why it was not felt appropriate to place the duty of supervision of a diver in the much lower category for maximum acceptable alcohol limits.

The regulations do not refer to testing procedures, but I assume that the procedures will be similar to those in respect of a civilian involved in a road accident or suspected of driving with excess alcohol. If that is the case, would an individual under these regulations be tested only if they were suspected of having excess alcohol; or, in respect of some or all of the duties listed, would there be automatic testing before an individual commenced their duties; or will there be random testing; or will it be up to the superior officer concerned to decide what to do in this regard? I am not sure the extent to which carrying out the duties listed in the regulations with an alcohol intake in excess of those laid down in these regulations is an issue at the moment. If it is not, the impact of the regulations is likely to be minimal. If it is an issue, the regulations will need to be introduced and implemented with a degree of care and thought if we are not to leave our Armed Forces with a feeling that they are being singled out and cannot be trusted, as my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe said.

Culture change, if that is what these regulations are also intended to help achieve, does not often come quickly or easily. We are, however, all too aware of the shooting dead of an officer on the submarine HMS “Astute” in April 2011 by a submariner who was at least three times over the drink-drive limit while on guard duty. The submariner had been issued with the SA80 weapon by an officer before the shooting. The officer said that he was unaware that the submariner was under the influence of alcohol at the time. The coroner said that he would recommend random breath testing for Navy personnel. He also said:

“Anyone being drunk, or anywhere near drunk, on duty has, in my view, got to stop. … In my view the routine use of the appropriate machinery to at least establish the absence of alcohol in the system is necessary as I’m not convinced that the concept of heavy drinking on leave periods is likely to alter very much”.

Those words should give food for thought. The reality, as we know, is that someone with a level of alcohol inside them which impairs their ability to perform their duties is a danger not only to themselves but also to colleagues and others who are dependent on them performing those duties with maximum effectiveness and efficiency for their own safety, and for maximising others’ levels of effectiveness and efficiency. For that reason above all others, we support the regulations.