Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Davies of Brixton

Committee stage
Monday 20th February 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I intended to make a second point about risk. Everyone tends to think about risk in terms of systemic risk—the finances of the country come under some pressure—but there is another risk that is not given sufficient attention, which is the risk that pension funds will fail to deliver the benefits that people expect to receive. That risk is given insufficient attention, but I hope it will be covered if there is a system where someone is given responsibility to look at risk. There is the risk of not getting out the benefits expected, as well as the risk to the financial system.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not particularly understand the technicalities that have been alluded to in this debate. I will just say a word or two about the bigger issue here, which is the problem that human beings as individuals and institutions have with handling low-probability, high-consequence risk. We know that younger human beings, particularly, gamble their lives on it in how they behave.

Of course, I was very close to this because, in 1988, I took over London Underground, which had just killed 31 people. In a sense, the syndrome that led to that was, “Well, it won’t happen”. The defence was that it was unforeseen—that is, the circumstances that led to that catastrophe were unforeseen. Yes, it was unforeseen because it was not looked for. It was not unforeseeable. That is the issue.

Anybody or any organisation—public bodies, in particular—that is responsible for big risks has a duty to pursue the low-probability, high-consequence risks. I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, who said that this is about risk management. It is much deeper than individual bits and bobs. We have had centuries of knowing just how high the consequences of systemic risk can be. If these amendments can address this problem in the financial world, I hope that the Government will give them a fair wind.

Social Security (Class 2 National Insurance Contributions Increase of Threshold) Regulations 2022

Debate between Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Davies of Brixton

Tuesday 6th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, as a supporter and fan of national insurance, I did not want these regulations to pass unnoted. I am a believer in the national insurance system—I guess there are not many of us left—where people pay contributions and that provides entitlement to national insurance benefits.

It has been understood, from the beginning, that there are people in employment and people who are self-employed. For practical reasons, different sets of rules have to apply to each group of workers. Nevertheless, the objective should always be neutrality in the financial impact, otherwise it is bound to give rise to issues of financial arbitrage regarding being employed or self-employed. That is all well understood. I will avoid going off down the IR35 track; there will be plenty of other opportunities to pursue that.

On the face of it—I would be interested in the Minister’s views—this change might be seen as a move towards reducing inequality between the employed and self-employed. However, in practice, it increases the difference. The tell is the fact that there is a cost, in a normal year, of £100 million. In the context of the figures we have seen in recent Budgets, that is not an enormous sum, but it suggests that this is a move away from neutrality and that it further increases the advantages that people perceive in being self-employed as opposed to being employed, with all the problems that flow from that. The background to this is clearly the extent of the acknowledged problem of fake self-employment for financial reasons. Perhaps the Minister would indicate, in broad terms, quite how this change fits in with what I hope is an understanding that there should not be excessive financial advantages in being self-employed.

I heard what the Minister said about the changes to entitlement to benefits. I emphasise that, in achieving neutrality between employed and self-employed contributions, there should equally be neutrality between the benefits paid to people who have paid the different types of contribution.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s introduction of these technical amendments by His Majesty’s Revenue & Customs. As she outlined, the practical impact is to implement the self-employment element of the Government’s commitment to align the trigger points for national insurance contributions with the income tax personal allowance. The SI will also ensure that individuals with profits at or above the existing small profits threshold but below the lower profits threshold are treated as if they have paid class 2 NICs. This will ensure that those individuals continue to be eligible for the contributory benefits, which is hugely important. We will not oppose the regulations, as they provide some much-needed help for self-employed people in the face of the current inflation crisis and probable recession.

National Insurance Contributions (Increase of Thresholds) Bill

Debate between Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Davies of Brixton

3rd reading & Committee stage
Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a bit unclear about quite how this process works, but given the limited number, I will not worry too much about that. I will not repeat my Second Reading speech but will actually make a Committee point—in theory, it is really a Clause 2 stand part point, but we might as well take everything together.

It is clear that a casual reader of the Explanatory Notes and the legislation would be totally fazed by what on earth class 2 and class 4 contributions are—let alone what primary and secondary contributions are. The whole system could be designed to confuse, although it is really like this because it has been altered over the years and has moved away from what was originally quite a logical structure.

My question for the Minister is in relation to classes 2 and 4. Contributions by the self-employed have become a mess and need to be sorted out because, first, they are confusing and, secondly, they create the opportunity for arbitrage—to use that word for the second time today —between employment status and self-employment. Effectively, the self-employed have an advantage in terms of their national insurance contributions, and, because of the way the lower threshold is being changed, that advantage is being increased. Is this an issue that the Treasury has considered, and does it think that it is time for a more thoroughgoing reassessment of how the self-employed pay national insurance contributions?

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for her use of the word “fungible”, which is always to be welcomed, and for getting the term “unearned income” through the Table Office. I have to presume that, because it is unqualified and unexplained in the amendment, it is a term that is still defined in legislation. It was used widely many years ago but clearly created problems, and it is now no longer used in general parlance, but it is obviously still there in the legislation. Could the Minister explain how this fits into the present taxation structure?

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, for tabling these amendments and facilitating a short Committee debate. Had we been afforded more time to look at the Bill, and had its scope been different, we would no doubt have seen far more amendments tabled and therefore had a number of very interesting debates. However, the Government know that they are behind the curve when it comes to the cost of living, and we must therefore deal with their piecemeal proposals at pace as they come forward.

Amendment 1 would accelerate the timescale for raising the NICs threshold for class 1 contributions. Although it was acknowledged during the Spring Statement that this change would take place only from July, many will have missed that important detail. The Minister will shortly tell us that this time is needed for payroll systems to be updated, and so on. As somebody who believes in due process, I am somewhat persuaded by that argument, but does she agree that, had the Chancellor acted quicker to deal with people’s genuine financial concerns, systems could have been fully operational by next week?

The rising cost of living has been making headlines for several months; it is not a new phenomenon, and I would be surprised if this has not been under active consideration for many months. There was certainly no need to wait until late March to make the announcement and publish the relevant legislation. After all, the health and social care levy was announced, seemingly at random, outside the usual cycle of fiscal events. Can the Minister confirm my understanding that higher class 1 contributions between April and July will stand, rather than the excess being given back throughout the tax year, or at its end, as a rebate? In that case, does that not raise the question: when is a tax cut not a tax cut?

We know that for many, the benefits derived from threshold equalisation will not be sufficient to offset the 1.25% increase in contributions. For them, it will not feel like a tax cut. The decision to cover only three-quarters of the tax year will inflict additional pain on many in the coming weeks and months. The energy price cap is going up on Friday, but the Chancellor’s somewhat lackadaisical cavalry will arrive only in July. It is little wonder that people across the land are frustrated.

Turning to Amendments 2 and 3, I can certainly see the appeal of forcing the Chancellor to face up to the reality of his decisions. Amendment 2 focuses on disposable incomes. We know from analysis carried out by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Resolution Foundation, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and others that April’s full suite of tax changes will leave people across much of the income distribution with less. The Treasury continues to insist that its proposals are progressive, but the fact remains that a real-terms cut to social security payments will leave many at the lower end of the income scale facing genuine financial difficulties. The Government say they want people to turn away from high-cost credit and use low or no-cost credit responsibly. The best way to encourage such behaviour is not to push people into poverty and debt in the first place.

Amendment 3 relates to the tax burden attached to earned and unearned income. The Government are increasingly fond of increasing taxes on workers. Given the announcement about income tax, it seems it is in order to fund giveaways which benefit other groups, such as landlords and investors. I have no issue with the people who benefit from unearned income, but that should not necessarily be given preferential treatment over wages in the tax system.

I look forward to the Minister’s response, as the amendments raise important issues. Ultimately, however, it is not for us to amend a Bill of this nature, given that it passed through the elected House without issue. We may not agree with the Government’s approach, but they must have their Bill and own any fallout that comes from it.