Elections Bill

Debate between Lord True and Lord Hayward

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Thursday 10th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have spoken in the debate. Perhaps I am allowed occasionally to speak as an individual from the Dispatch Box as well as a Minister, and I have not changed a view that I held as Back-Bencher, which is that the minimum number of amendments is desirable and that all Governments should seek to get Bills into the best possible condition before they come before your Lordships’ House. That is desirable, and I made an apology at the outset.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, and others pointed out, a significant number of the amendments arise from our decision to respect the recommendations of the Senedd and the decision of the Scottish Government. We believe that some of the issues concerned are important and that we should proceed to legislate, but, as I said in my opening remarks, we intend to continue discussions with the Scottish and Welsh Governments and would be interested to see how they proceed. We have welcomed the indication that they are considering legislating comparably in a number of areas covered.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked whether there were areas where we were deferring to the Scottish nationalists. I would not put it that way. Some of the areas were where there was a disagreement. Your Lordships have already indicated that you might also disagree with Her Majesty’s Government—let us say, on the elements relating to the proposed strategy and policy document, and that is one area covered by these amendments, as the noble Baroness opposite said.

However, one consequence of the withholding of the consent Motion will be that the modernised undue influence offence will apply only to reserved and excepted elections. The Government’s view is that a UK-wide application of the measure would have delivered greater levels of integrity by upholding what we submit in this Bill should be a basic principle: that those guilty of an intimidation offence should not be allowed to stand at any election in the United Kingdom. That is why we sought legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament on those measures. Following these amendments, which we have introduced for the reasons that I have given, and if your Lordships give assent to the legislation, offenders will still face a five-year ban from standing for all elected offices in the UK save for the Scottish Parliament or Scottish local government. In respect of devolution, it will be for the Scottish Government to make the necessary changes themselves to disqualify individuals who are disqualified for such offences in other parts of the UK. Other areas of undue influence, sanctions against intimidation, measures on notional expenditure—referred to by the noble Baroness—and third-party campaigning will apply only to reserved and combined regulated electoral periods.

There will be divergence, and in some cases there is already divergence. There is already some minor divergence, for example, between the current version of the undue influence offence in the 1983 Act and the situation in Scotland. That has not so far caused any confusion, and we do not expect this to be any different. We would expect ambiguities to be straightforward for the courts to resolve.

Obviously, we will continue to watch events. I am not anticipating that the Scottish Government would not wish to legislate in this area, or indeed, as the noble Baroness said, that the Welsh Senedd might not. But we are submitting to Parliament the idea that Parliament should act in respect of things such as undue influence, intimidation and the measures on notional expenditure. We have taken the judgment to proceed—showing respect to the devolved Administrations not by waiting, but by excising and allowing them to make their own decisions and proposals.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked me a specific question on a specific matter, which I undertake to write to her about, and to place the letter in the House in the normal way. My noble friend Lord Hayward asked about the designation of the new committee. This is in the legislation, because the effect of one of the amendments before the House is to remove PACAC and put in the other House of Commons committee. Ultimately, if this Bill is not thrown out—as was impishly suggested at the start of our proceedings—it will go back to the other place for it to determine. I shall give way to my noble friend Lord Hayward in a moment.

It surely is the case that if a government department is responsible for an important subject such as elections, the scrutiny should be conducted by the committee of the other place that is responsible for scrutinising that department. As I said, that will be the committee that is being substituted, under the chairmanship of Mr Betts. I give way to my noble friend.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

I am sorry if I did not make this clear, but I was asking a question about the future structure of committees, beyond the next change. I think I used the term future-proofing, as it takes into consideration Governments’ habit of changing structures. Is there a part of the Bill that will future-proof structural change, so that when we move on from one select committee having responsibility for overviewing elections matters to another committee having that responsibility, it will not require a change to primary legislation?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I have not had advice from the Box on this, and that is always a dangerous place for a Minister to be. However, I try to read carefully what I put before your Lordships’ House, and I think it is provided in proposed new section 4C(8) that,

“If the functions of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee at the passing of this Act with respect to electoral matters … become functions of a different committee of the House of Commons, the reference … to that Committee is to be read as a reference to the committee which for the time being has those functions”.


Maybe I am parsing that wrongly. If I am, I will apologise to my noble friend and to the Committee and come back with a better explanation—but sometimes a Minister just has to try his best at the Dispatch Box. Does the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, want to intervene?

Representation of the People (Proxy Vote Applications) (Coronavirus) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Debate between Lord True and Lord Hayward

Tuesday 8th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have taken part in this short debate, and I particularly welcome the general support given on behalf of all parties, starting with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and for the recognition that the timely completion of this instrument is crucial in ensuring successful running of polls throughout 2022 while Covid regulations remain in place.

The immediate assurance that I can certainly give to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, is that there is absolutely no question of reducing the extent of protection for those in what was originally defined as the shielding groups. Under the extended regulations, electors will be able to appoint an emergency proxy to vote on their behalf without attestation when they are legally required to isolate and when attending a polling station would be contrary to advice provided by their medical professional—the kind of group that she described—and, indeed, when they believe that attendance at a polling station could lead to transmission of coronavirus. For example, they may be displaying symptoms but awaiting a test result. That picks up on what the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, was saying. Electors are also able to amend their existing proxy arrangements at very short notice, when the proxy is unable to vote on their behalf, due to the reasons above. So the technical change in wording does not reduce to any degree the availability or accessibility of arrangements, and I am very glad that the noble Baroness raised it. If I had been in her place, and seeing these words disappearing, I would have wanted to ask that question, which is why I anticipated it to some degree and mentioned it in my opening remarks.

My noble friend Lord Hayward, with support, raised the question of correspondence between him and my department, and indeed, DLUHC on this matter. As he knows, as part of our consultation on the Elections Bill this morning, we also discussed the matter. The statutory instruments here—this one and others—were made in the context of the height of the original Covid pandemic, when the Government were encouraging absolutely minimal social interaction and there was legislation in place restricting such activity. That is no longer the case, and therefore we judge that the measure is no longer necessary on Covid grounds. The Government are clear that it is important that the democratic process is as accessible as possible, and making that change permanent for specific polls, for which my noble friend asks, would need consideration in the context of wider electoral policy and legislation.

However, I welcome the point raised by my noble friend and by the noble Baroness opposite, and the Elections Bill is coming before your Lordships’ House very shortly. The Government are certainly open to further discussion on this topic. The existing arrangements have been useful. It may interest the House to know that in the May 2021 PCC, mayoral and local elections, there were 2,800 instances in which the facilities afforded by these regulations were made use of. That is not a phenomenal number of people, but they were used by certain people at the height of the pandemic, so they have been useful. We consider that while the pandemic continues, it is worth extending the provision allowing electors to appoint a proxy or change their existing proxy up until 5 pm on polling day on various grounds relating to Covid. That is sensible, but there is a point on the other side, fairly made by the noble Baroness, that there is a balance in these things when making permanent procedures which might make it easy to circumvent the normal controls. This is a specific measure introduced to help people during the course of the pandemic. However, the Government are considering very carefully that balance, and I look forward to discussing it during the course of the Elections Bill.

I hope I have responded to—

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

I seek clarification in the light of what I understand my noble friend to have just said. We had previously written, seeking on behalf of all parties and organisations such as the Local Government Association—which supports the proposal—and the intention was quite clear in the correspondence that I wrote, originally almost a month ago, that there would not be the opportunity for an SI to be brought forward now and that, therefore, we would have to wait for the Elections Bill for such a change to be implemented. If that is the case, I regret, given that the conversations have been ongoing, that I and others—including the LGA and others, not only political parties but organisations representing interested parties—could have been told or received some indication previously.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am disappointed by my noble friend’s comment. I regret that he is disappointed. The regulations we put in place were clearly time-limited and intended to be so. I indicated to him, as he well knows, in correspondence that took place and my response to the noble Baroness opposite, that the Government are open to discussion on this particular point, but the Government believe that careful consideration must be given to it in view of some of the implications. No doubt, my noble friend will have the opportunity on the Elections Bill to raise the matter again.

I can assure my noble friend that no personal discourtesy was intended by me or, I am sure, by any Minister in the responsible department in failing to deal with this matter in the timescale he asked for. If he has been offended, of course I regret that, but I stand by the position that I put before your Lordships, which I thought was fair. I think I said that I welcomed the point that he and the noble Baroness opposite had raised and that we are open to further discussions on this topic. I made the same point to my noble friend this morning in the exchanges we had on the Elections Bill, and I have nothing further to add.

National Insurance Numbers: Electoral Register

Debate between Lord True and Lord Hayward

Thursday 22nd July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con) [V]]

My Lords, we have spoken often about the great service of the late Lord Shutt. We are determined to see people exercise their right to vote, but there are numerous important practical reasons to oppose automatic registration, and that is the position of the Government. Automatic registration would likely require a single national electoral register and/or a centralised database, and the Government have no plans to move in that direction.

[Lord Hayward (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the comments made by the Minister a few moments ago. I regard this as a substantial step forward in encouraging participation by attainers in elections, and it should be greeted as such. Progress can be made in encouraging people to vote and to register, and, like him, I do not believe in forced registration.

Covid-19: May Elections

Debate between Lord True and Lord Hayward

Thursday 25th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I sincerely hope not. The noble Lord, in a sense, answered the first part of his question. The position is obviously that Senedd elections are the responsibility of the Welsh Government and police commissioner elections of the UK Government. We are working closely with the Welsh Government on planning for polls. The UK Government have confirmed that local, mayoral and police commissioner elections scheduled for 6 May will go ahead in England and Wales. A decision to postpone the Senedd elections would be for the Welsh Government but our understanding is that they have no plans to do so at this time. So I hope that all can go together.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Lord Speaker, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and myself, I say thank you very much.

Moving on to my supplementary question, first, I record my thanks and those of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for the Government’s willingness to change the procedure in relation to signatories for nomination forms, which has greatly benefited everybody in these circumstances. I also take this opportunity on behalf of everyone involved to welcome the extreme efforts that all members of electoral services organisations are making to deliver free and efficient elections in difficult circumstances.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I strongly agree with my noble friend’s final comments about electoral services officers. I am also grateful for the interventions he and others made. The Government are always willing to engage with noble Lords on these and other matters. There is a collective will across the House to make sure that elections can go ahead safely.

Elections: May 2021

Debate between Lord True and Lord Hayward

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

As the noble Lord knew I would, I thoroughly endorse the first remark he made. I believe local democracy is the cornerstone, and I wish that were more widely recognised. The Government will continue to engage with political parties to ensure that people are able to campaign safely and securely and to secure information. As far as his specific proposal is concerned, I will certainly make sure that that is fed into consideration.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s response to the Urgent Question yesterday—both the commitment to having elections on 6 May and to minimising unnecessary face-to-face campaigning. In that spirit, may I ask a question similar to one asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, in a Written Question, a few weeks ago? Will the Government urgently introduce changes to the requirement for registered parties to seek large numbers of nomination signatures for each campaign? We already have election campaigns where signatures are not necessary, and I request that similar procedures are introduced for all elections on 6 May.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his remarks. There are no plans to change the number of signatures required for nomination in May 2021, or to allow nominations to be accepted by email. Although returning officers may allow parts of the nominations process to be carried out online, such as the arrangement of necessary documents, final nomination papers have to be delivered in person. The Government have considered these issues with the electoral sector and Public Health England, and they are of the view that the current process can be carried out in a Covid-secure way.

Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011

Debate between Lord True and Lord Hayward

Monday 15th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True [V]]

My Lords, as I said, many matters will be considered and we will make further announcements in due course. I think the noble Lord would agree that Parliament did not have its finest hour under the aegis of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. That is why, partly to restore Parliament’s reputation, we need clear arrangements that command support.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My Lords, I want to comment on my noble friend’s constant references to “in due course”. The Parliamentary Constituencies Bill, already under consideration in the Commons, is affected by any changes to the Fixed-term Parliaments Act; and the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, is chairing a committee in this House giving consideration to electoral legislation, which will also be affected by any such changes. I ask my noble friend to expedite both the commission’s implementation and its completion.

[Lord True [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend refers to important legislation relating to modes of election. We are talking here about the timing of elections. I assure him that the Government remain completely committed to implementing their manifesto proposal on this Act.

European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill

Debate between Lord True and Lord Hayward

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 6th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

But the matter is much simpler, and those outside this House will understand where we are.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for giving way, and in asking this question I remind him of the last time that a Government went to “let the people decide”. It was in 1974—which is an interesting parallel that he might not wish to follow. I will ask about the wording, in the opposite direction to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell. The amendment refers to the “first general election” of 2019. Are we expecting to have more than one in 2019?

[Lord True]

My Lords, the words are as tabled and the House has any opportunity—it can use whatever excuse and whatever thing it wants to say—to vote down this amendment. I was advised by the clerks on the wording of the amendment and its purpose—

Business of the House

Debate between Lord True and Lord Hayward

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

I do not want to get into the issue of Prorogation, simply because of the time. But I spoke about Prorogation the last time we discussed these things. We all know that Prorogation is perfectly normal. There is always a Queen’s Speech. There has been one every year and the next Government will introduce a Queen’s Speech after the general election. In response to the noble Baroness, I will make the point that, if there were an election and a new Session, there would be more time to have such a Bill after that than there is in the next two days. There would be several days in which we could discuss it, not two days. It is not necessary to do it now. Indeed, after an election, if the party opposite won, we would not need a Bill because it would ask for an extension anyway—and if our side won, the Bill would not go forward. So the whole thing is entirely unnecessary, and this House is being asked to sign away hundreds of years of tradition on a pretext.

I support my noble friend. There are questions that the noble Baroness should answer. What does the Salisbury doctrine apply to? In her doctrine, we must defer to the Commons. Does self-regulation always mean a Motion from the Leader of the Opposition? Her guillotine says that if it passes, no one else may put any proposition to the House in the time that we are discussing this Bill, except the Leader of the Opposition. There are questions that need to be answered. I strongly support the view of my noble friend that we should take the Committee opportunity to get some answers from the Leader of the Opposition.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Will my noble friend include on the list of questions that he is putting to the Leader of the Opposition that of whether this Motion would be necessary if we did not have Prorogation?

[Lord True]

The Motion is not at all necessary, irrespective of Prorogation. I just made that point. There will be more time in a new Parliament to deal with this Bill than in these two days.

Motion