EU Council

Debate between Lord Trimble and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the views of the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, on this are extremely well known. He believes that there should be a referendum in the United Kingdom about leaving the EU or that the United Kingdom should just leave the European Union as soon as possible. That view is not shared by this Government. We think that in the past the EU has gone in the wrong direction but we are hopeful. The noble Lord may not have read the European Commission’s statement but I hope that he will take the opportunity to do so. I am glad to see he is indicating that he has read it. I think he should be heartened by much of what was said in it about growth, jobs, deregulation and single markets, which will aid prosperity in the long term.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, my noble friend the Leader of the House has made reference to implementing as soon as possible the matters agreed last October. However, is that realistic? Last October, there was reference to agreeing a private sector reduction of Greek bonds by 50 per cent. There has been no agreement, and apparently officials are now looking for a reduction in value of 70 per cent, although the chance of there being agreement on that is minimal. Other institutions talk about firewalls and contagion. The EFSF was created but has turned out to be a complete damp squib. There is now talk of bringing forward the next measure but it is similar in character and is also likely to be ineffective. I appreciate that my noble friend has to be diplomatic but is not the reality that that agenda and those agreements are not going to work with regard to Greece? As my noble friend Lord Higgins said, Greece will have to leave. The euro has been a failure as far as it and other countries are concerned, and the sooner the people who are trying to give that leadership to Europe get their heads round that, the better.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is not just diplomatic to say that these are issues that Greece and the other countries of the eurozone need to sort out; it is common sense. My noble friend's gloomy view may come to pass, but we should all fear that. There is a chilling effect on the economy already because of the crisis in the eurozone, and it would be considerably worse if there was a real banking problem in the whole of the eurozone and the whole of Europe, which would leak into us. Therefore, we urge the countries of the eurozone to solve their problem. With the intergovernmental treaty, we have given them the best opportunity to do so.

European Council

Debate between Lord Trimble and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 12th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am bound to say that I disagree with all of that. This was not about party but national interests. It was not about—what did he say?—playing to the worst aspects of the British character. That is quite wrong. This is the problem that noble Lords opposite find themselves in. Time and time again, they feel that agreeing with our European partners on everything will protect our long-term interests. We disagree.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, we are not absolutely sure of this but is it not likely that the issue will come back to the European Council if there is any attempt or desire on behalf of the eurozone people to make use of the institutions of the Union? When the issue comes back, we will be there making our point of view known. Did the Leader of the House hear on Radio 4 this morning the comment by the distinguished American economist that if you are not prepared to walk away you will have no leverage?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I did not hear that interview, but my noble friend is right. In any negotiation, particularly one as important and controversial as this one, you have to take a decision right at the beginning on whether you are going to negotiate in good faith. As I have already said, we put forward a proposal that was relatively humble, it was not agreed with, and that is why we said no.

On the question of EU institutions, I think I have covered that very fully this afternoon. Of course, it will come back as an issue and we will take a decision in due course.

European Council

Debate between Lord Trimble and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 20th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords. The noble Lord says that we have been accused of kowtowing too much to Europhiles. We have certainly been accused of kowtowing to Eurosceptics. The main point of this, which the noble Lord has understood very well, is that we have said clearly that if there is to be a transfer of power from this Parliament to the European Union, it should be subject to a referendum. We hear what people are saying in various polls about their view that too much power has been ceded, that they are not consulted enough and it is all being done the wrong way. We will make this a matter of statute when later in this Session we get to the European Bill, which I hope the noble Lord and other noble Lords will support.

The countries of the eurozone need to sort out their own problems. No doubt some of us will have different views as to how that should be done but, if there was a move down the road towards a European-wide fiscal solution for European-wide economic problems, we would oppose it.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, my noble friend is quite right to say with regard to the proposed new bailout proposals that they affect only the eurozone and do not affect us, so there is no change in our position and no need to consider a referendum on the issue. However, it is probably worth pointing out that, with regard to the eurozone, the proposed changes would be very substantial indeed. The new proposals empower the EU to enforce strict conditionality, which the Wall Street Journal says today is bureaucrat-speak for telling a country what it must do on taxes, spending and economic policy as a price for being rescued. Those are very substantial changes.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My noble friend is absolutely correct; they are substantial changes. However, the eurozone needs substantial changes because of the problems that it has found itself in.

European Council

Debate between Lord Trimble and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 21st June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I cannot confirm that there was a discussion at the European Council but clearly the situation in Kosovo is immensely tense and the noble Lord has great expertise on it. The words that he has spoken today will of course be taken fully into account by my colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

[Lord Trimble]

Further to the point made earlier by my noble friend Lord Higgins, I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to what happened under the Bretton Woods system of fixed exchange rates whereby on occasions Germany revalued the deutschmark upwards, thus taking account of the changes between it and other countries on competitiveness. Surely what we need in the eurozone is some mechanism of that nature whereby one can adjust for changes in competitiveness rather than force countries, as is proposed to be done, through incredibly tough measures which they probably are incapable of sustaining.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My noble friend raises a point that we could debate and discuss for a very long time. He is right to mention the Bretton Woods arrangements. As to whether there should be an automatic mechanism to adjust for competitiveness, that is a matter not for the Government but the European Bank. It must take into account all the needs of all the economies within the eurozone and it is one of the reasons—only one—why we supported the view of the then Government that we should not join the euro in 1999.

Saville Inquiry

Debate between Lord Trimble and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, the Leader of the House is right in saying that it is clear that on Bloody Sunday 14 innocent people were killed, that the killings were all individually wrong and that mistakes were made in the planning and conduct of the operation. As he also says, however, lessons were learnt, and we saw the fruits of those lessons over the years.

The noble Lord is also right to point to the context. As has been mentioned, there was a serious terrorist campaign already in existence well before Bloody Sunday. That campaign was launched within a mature democracy where there were plenty of opportunities for people to seek reform and change through peaceful and democratic methods, but those who were perpetrating the campaign—the Provisional IRA—knew that their objects could not be achieved by democratic methods. It would be a perversion of what happened on Bloody Sunday if those events were then used to try to justify the wholly unjustifiable campaign that the Provisional IRA launched in 1970.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, no one seeks to justify the campaign of paramilitaries, whatever side they came from, or indeed the deaths that have occurred over the past 40 years in Northern Ireland as a result of that campaign. We have moved a long way from that stage. A number of agreements have been struck, and we now have a great opportunity to bring peace and stability to Northern Ireland, which I know my noble friend wholly supports.