Higher Education (Basic Amount) (England) Regulations 2010

Debate between Lord Triesman and Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

I sense that the noble Lord is coming to the end of his speech. Indeed, he has made a powerful case to the House, as he always does. To what extent that turns out to be a cogent case will be seen no doubt in the debate which follows. He asked for fundamentals. Perhaps I may ask him to address this one: is it not the case that the Labour Party acknowledged before the general election that there would be a sharp shortfall in the basic funds provided to universities? If not by these means, by what means would the Labour Party fill this gap?

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, it was always a likelihood that there would be some increases in fees. But increases on these kinds of scales were never contemplated.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, knows perfectly well that I have read it. Not only have I read it but I understand what motivates it. If the ship is going down, you get in the lifeboat. That is a simple matter. You do not quarrel about the painted colour of the lifeboat; you get in the lifeboat.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

My Lords—

[Lord Triesman]

I wanted to complete my point about the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown. It is simply this. There is no question in my mind, and it is not a Dickensian point, that people who are in the lowest-income families do not set off to attract massive debt. There is a huge dissuasion in that. Anyone who has come up through one of those families or one of those areas will know it.