House of Lords: Reform

Lord Trees Excerpts

Wednesday 1st May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

It is important that the House is refreshed, and I have already explained that the current Prime Minister recently encouraged Labour to put forward candidates for peerages—I am particularly pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Hannett, with whom I used to work when we were in retail together. The numbers change over time. There are large numbers on the Cross Benches as well as on the party Benches. We have to make sure that we scrutinise the legislation, do our job and refresh the House from time to time. I am grateful for the work that all the parties have done in encouraging retirement and supporting new people to join this House with new perspectives.

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, in considering changes to the House of Lords, many advocate an elected Chamber. But I suggest that it is usually good practice, before determining the composition of any group, to first consider its function—function before form. I think many would agree that the function of this House, as articulated by the Minister, is as a scrutinising, revising Chamber to make legislation better. In considering that, does the Minister agree that an appointed Chamber, as now, is better placed to deliver that function than an elected Chamber?

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I agree that an elected Chamber has problems, because there would inevitably be a clash with the Commons and indeed the devolved legislatures. An appointed Chamber allows the Commons to prevail constitutionally and serve constituents across the country. Reform is not ruled out in the longer term but we have been very clear, certainly ever since I joined the Front Bench, that we should not have piecemeal reform and that any reform should be very careful, considered and comprehensive.

Deregulation Bill

Lord Trees Excerpts

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, I am all for getting rid of rules and regulations that have served no purpose and are redundant, but when we take a scythe to the deep undergrowth, we risk cutting down some very useful plants. I contend that that is happening here in reference to Part 6 of Schedule 20, which amends the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. What the provision would do, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, has explained, is to remove a critical requirement for the licensed breeder to maintain records to a prescribed form with respect to the breeding of their bitches.

I contend that to remove this requirement is a retrograde step at this time. What we are talking about here is animal welfare and puppy farming. We are witnessing a huge, unprecedented growth in the commercial breeding of dogs purely for financial gain. In many cases, animals are kept under very inappropriate conditions. This is a matter of considerable concern to the public, to the animal welfare charities and to politicians. We had a debate on dog welfare in this House about a year ago, in which puppy farming was dealt with, and there was a debate in the other place on this issue as recently as early September.

We have laws in place to safeguard the animal welfare of breeding bitches: the aforesaid Acts of 1973 and 1999, which laid down limitations on the number of litters that a bitch can be allowed to produce per year and in a lifetime, the minimum age for breeding and so on. However, the Bill proposes to dismantle the very tools that will allow local authorities to ensure that those important laws, which we all agree that we still need, are being obeyed. So the current regulations are relevant and all that removing them will do is to provide meat and drink for unscrupulous dog breeders to exploit their breeding bitches.

As I mentioned, this matter was debated in another place on 4 September, when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State’s attention was drawn to this issue. However, in summarising on that debate he made no reference to this problem but did reference the recommendations of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health on the sorts of conditions which should be included in any regulations. It is made quite clear in the chartered institute’s guidance that maintaining complete and accurate records is regarded as essential. The current requirements are not onerous. There is a simple pro forma to fill in and you keep a record every time that the bitch breeds. To remove that will not see a surge in the gross domestic product of the United Kingdom, so why imperil animal welfare for no obvious purpose?

I suspect that the answer will be that these current requirements are redundant because it is proposed to bring in mandatory microchipping in 2016. I am totally in favour of mandatory microchipping but as was explained by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, the microchipping regulations do not cover the areas of concern that I am expressing. Microchipping is there to link a human being with a dog. I have looked at the draft regulations, which require no more than certain details of the owner and certain details about the dog—its colour, breed and so on. The microchipping regulations do not include any information about the sire or dam of the dog in question or, if it is a bitch, whether it has bred at all, how many litters it has had, when it has had those litters and so on, so they do not substitute for the requirements which it is proposed to abolish.

Removing the current requirement is opposed by the Advisory Council on the Welfare Issues of Dog Breeding, the Dogs Trust, the British Veterinary Association and indeed, by the Local Government Association. Removing the requirement will hardly benefit the economy and will certainly not benefit animal welfare, but it will benefit unscrupulous dog breeders in their attempts to exploit their dogs. I contend that the current regulations are relevant and not redundant. I ask the Minister to reconsider.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

Given the noble Lord’s great knowledge on this issue, can he comment on the problem of dangerous dogs and interbreeding, and whether this will weaken our controls in that area?

[Lord Trees]

It might conceivably in the sense that breeders need to record the details of the sire as well as the bitch in the prescribed form. It could have an effect on the matter raised by the noble Lord. Clearly certain breeds are proscribed, so they would not—or should not—be used for breeding, and presumably would not be entered here. That may have some bearing on the matter. The primary concern is the exploitation of bitches in general and overbreeding because of the financial advantages.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for giving the Committee an opportunity to consider these important matters, and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, who brings considerable experience and expertise to such issues. I have a dog, but as it is in Scotland it will not be affected by paragraphs 31 or 32 of Schedule 20, covered by the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester.

I should say at the outset, and quite properly as I am sure the Committee would agree, that the welfare of dogs is vital. We have been described as a nation of dog lovers and we would want nothing less. I understand that the provision in paragraph 31 relates, as has been said, to questions of the keeping of records and does not impinge on other parts of the legislation dealing with welfare. Paragraph 32 is consequential on paragraph 31. That is an important concern to the noble Lord. There are many other provisions that seek to secure the welfare of dogs. I acknowledge from the concerns expressed, not least in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that some of these records are important for welfare.

As has been identified, the underlying reason for including these paragraphs in the schedule is because most of the information held on paper records will, as from April 2016, be held on a microchip database. It is also the case that any information that is not held on a microchip database, and which a local authority considers a particular licensed dog breeding establishment should record, can be made an additional condition of the licence, so there is provision if there is concern about a particular breeding establishment. However, we recognise that the repeal of these paragraphs is not intended to commence until the microchipping is in place. The relevant commencement provisions are at Clause 90(2)(n). Subsection (2) states:

“The following provisions come into force at the end of the period of 2 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed”,

and receives Royal Assent.

Paragraphs 31, 32 and 37, the subject of the next amendment, are excluded from coming into effect after two months but rather, as I read it, will come into force on such a date as the Secretary of State may by statutory instrument appoint. There was concern about this being introduced before the microchipping provision. That will not be the case, but I can go further than that because the Government have been aware of some of the concerns and have decided to consult the key stakeholders on this issue. If there is enough evidence to support retaining the requirement for licensed dog breeders to keep records, the Government will not commence the repeals contained in paragraphs 31 and 32 of Schedule 20.