Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Thurlow and Lord Greenhalgh

Committee stage
Monday 28th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Thurlow (CB)]

Before the Minister stands up, perhaps I can make two points. This is a large group of quite diverse amendments. My concern is over the accountable person role. Judging by the discussion today—I will not go through the list of different contributions—I think it is going to be a very difficult job indeed. That person is going to need help in creating a co-operative working relationship with tenant groups, and the situation could be exacerbated by bad and difficult freeholders or managing agents, often in league, and if the accountable person finds himself or herself in their pocket it will not be made any easier.

I do not overlook difficult leaseholders. There are some tenants who will not let anybody into their building. That is also a problem to be dealt with, but I have two suggestions. The accountable person should be prepared to prove reasonableness in all their behaviours and should also be prepared to prove value for money. An autocratic manager refusing to engage with a leaseholder makes life even more difficult. In the second case, concerning value for money, whether it is the fire extinguisher example given by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, or some captive insurance company or an arrangement with a very high commission-bearing insurer offering kickbacks to freeholders, that would be avoided.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to say how amazed I am by how young the noble Lord, Lord Khan, is. I thought I was a whippersnapper as someone in my mid-50s, but the noble Lord must have been born in—what, the late 1970s?

Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Thurlow and Lord Greenhalgh

Committee stage
Thursday 24th February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Thurlow (CB)]

Forgive me butting in at the end but before the Minister responds, I thought that I should make a further point in connection with the amendments of the noble Lords, Lord Blencathra and Lord Best.

It is a reminder that the property development industry, when undertaking projects of blocks of flats or groups of houses—projects of medium size upwards—used to employ a clerk of the works. I am not sure whether it has been a mandatory appointment within the chain of building command, but the clerk of the works was defined as someone onsite who inspected workmanship, its quality, the safety of the work being done and, importantly, reported to senior managers and clients.

Inevitably, lack of mandatory appointment requirements and fewer and fewer clerks of works on projects led to shortcuts and poor workmanship. A clerk of the works might cost between £50,000 and £100,000 a year. For the employer, that could be significantly more, given all the on-costs. On many projects, that adds up to millions of pounds,. So of course those appointments became redundant in the eyes of the bean counters. That simply underlines the importance of the ombudsman’s role, its independence from the industry in absolute terms and the period of time limitations within which claims can be brought.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I had not thought that this debate would take quite so long, but it has been worth listening to every second of every minute. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, for that late intervention because we have unlearned a lot of the practices that led to a higher quality of build. We would not be in the mess we were in if we had not unlearned some of the things that we did so well during the Victorian period, when there was a way of building using pattern books. Everything was essentially a process, which the Edwardians developed further. Somewhere along the line we have lost that desire to build quality. Just imagine if the Romans came back from the dead to look at what we were building over the past 30 years in the 90s, the noughties and the 10s. They would be absolutely appalled at the standard of build. They did not build their temples to last 10 or 15 years but centuries. We have got to learn that quality of our built environment matters. I thank noble Lords for raising some of their points.

One of the objectives of the Bill is not just to create a regulatory system that works but to raise the competence of an industry that has cut corners and, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, effectively gamed the system. We have to get back to the culture around quality, competence and professionalism. That will take not just legislation but an attitude of mind.

I start by responding directly to the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, around impact assessments. He is absolutely right. The government amendments came thick and fast. My entire weekends have been ruined since the beginning of the year, working at pace as we approved a plethora of amendments. It is fair to say that the sheer pace of this has meant that it has not been possible to look entirely at the impact. We just know that they are the right lines, and the impacts will be looked at in due course—my response says, “We are looking at the impact of the government amendments and will publish an assessment in due course.” We have been working very fast to get this right in the time we have, and we thought it was very important that we were ready to have these discussions in Committee of government amendments before we get to the even more serious business of Report.

I shall respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, about Clause 126 and intruding on the powers of the Senedd. We have worked closely with the Welsh Government across all areas of the Bill to develop and agree measures that work for England and Wales. The Welsh Government have agreed the measures applying to Wales and we expect legislative consent in due course.

I have had a number of ministerial meetings with my counterparts in the devolved Administrations, and there are lessons to be learned from the Welsh approach to the building safety crisis—and, indeed, from my Scottish and Northern Ireland colleagues—on this issue. It affects all our nations in this great United Kingdom, and we have a constant dialogue as we grapple with it, but it is fair to say that the lion’s share of the problem lies in our big cities here in England. That is not to say that we are not learning from the Welsh and others, and of course we will not ride roughshod over them. I hope that gives the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock and Lady Hayman of Ullock, some reassurance.

I thank my noble friend Lord Blencathra for bringing forward his amendments, which are clearly aimed to impose greater punishment on those who breach building regulations. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, for mentioning a breach of the regulations, probably around the time when my noble friend Lord Young was the Housing Minister. I do not know whether he was responsible for the 1984 building regulations—he was. We have the living history in the Room, in the person who brought them forward. Do you know what I was doing in 1984? I was doing my A-levels, and here we have the Minister who brought forward the building regulations in 1984. That is the kind of place we have: people with decades of understanding of these issues.

It is a crime to breach building regulations. If you commit a crime in this country, there is no statute of limitations—I know that from being Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime—so people can go after you after any period. I have huge sympathy for the intent behind there not being a short period of time, and it is important that we recognise that breaches of building regulations are criminal; that cannot be said often enough. I thank the noble Baroness for raising that again, and the Government have sympathy, but I fear we are unable to accept my noble friend’s proposals, as I intimated in my opening speech.

Looking first at Amendment 13, we consider that the changes are unnecessary for a couple of reasons. First, for some years now, the magistrates’ courts have had the power to impose unlimited fines—and fines are, of course, the principal punishment available in respect of corporate bodies, which are most likely to be in a position to commit the offence of breaching building regulations.

Secondly, it will not have escaped your Lordships’ notice that significant backlogs have developed in the Crown Court over the past two years as Covid protocols have been introduced. The costs to the courts service, the prosecution and the defence are also far higher in the Crown Court.

As was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, it is quite possible for the building regulations to be breached in a relatively minor way. In such cases, it would be entirely appropriate for the case to be dealt with by the magistrates. It is, of course, also possible for breaches to be extremely serious, which is why the Bill for the first time allows cases to be dealt with in the Crown Court, in the same way as crimes are dealt with: sometimes in the magistrates’ court, sometimes in the Crown Court. However, we do not consider that it would be sensible to require all breaches of the building regulations to be dealt with in the Crown Court.

Turning to Amendment 14, I say to my noble friend that I agree with increasing the daily rate of fine for ongoing offences. Indeed, the Bill already increases the daily rate from £50—where it has been since 1984, when I am sure it was set by my noble friend Lord Young, when £50 was a considerably greater sum of money than it is today—to £200, which is the current rate for a level 1 fine. However, we consider that increasing it further to £2,500, as my noble friend proposes, “would be disproportionate”—that is what it says here, anyway.

The principal aim of the prosecution must be to impose an initial fine commensurate to that particular offence; any further fine should merely encourage work to be put right, rather than imposing huge additional punishment. We consider the potential maximum of £5,600 for the month of February is likely to be significantly more proportionate on top of the fine imposed on conviction, rather than the £70,000 proposed by my noble friend.

On Amendment 15, imposing a sentence according to a mathematical formula raises a number of issues. First, the cost of the work done will not always be clear; there may be disputes about the cost in the invoice or the value of the work actually done, and resolving this would take up the court’s valuable time. Secondly, the court might consider that, in a particularly egregious case, a significantly higher fine is required than one that would be arrived at from the calculation. The amendment would preclude the court from imposing that higher fine. Finally, the provision in the amendment to enable the court to impose rapidly escalating further fines, if the breach remains unresolved, has the potential to lead to significant unfairness—as, for example, a £10,000 initial fine could total up to £70,000 if a breach remained unresolved for just two months after conviction.

As I said at the start of my remarks, while I am supportive of my noble friend’s amendments, I hope that with this explanation he will be content not to press them. I reiterate that I absolutely sympathise, and want to go with the nature of this—but that is the response to the amendments as tabled today. I thank my noble friend for laying the amendments for us to think them through and debate them extensively.

Before turning to the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Best, about strengthening the teeth of the new homes ombudsman, it is important to reflect that there has to be a little bit of work done to tidy up the whole approach to the ombudsman’s service for people in housing. I asked my colleagues behind me to list the number of people who provide a complaints service for people in different types of homes and tenures. We have the new homes ombudsman, which will be unleashed for new build, but we also, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, will know, have the Regulator of Social Housing and—my old colleague at City Hall, Rick Blakeway—the Housing Ombudsman Service, and we have the Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman. Homes are homes, and we need to think about how we get a complaints service that works for homes in the round. I know that we can categorise social housing as being over here, and people in private renting over there, but these are people’s homes. We need to recognise that, at the moment, it is a patchwork quilt of services that provide that whole ombudsman service, and that is not ideal. I wanted to put that forward—that, when discussing this subject, we are talking about new-build private homes and not housing in the round.

I turn to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Best. I thank him for raising this important matter, but I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept these amendments, as the intention can be achieved elsewhere. The Bill sets out requirements for the ombudsman scheme to include provision about what home buyers can complain to the ombudsman about in individual cases, and making improvement recommendations about scheme members’ quality of work and conduct in general. The developers’ code of practice allows the standards of conduct and standards of quality of work expected of members of the scheme to be set out.

The noble Lord’s amendments would provide the ombudsman with powers to make general requirements of the scheme’s members, duplicating provisions already in the Bill. It is unclear how they could be enforced or appealed against, and we must be careful that the ombudsman does not duplicate the role of regulators, the scheme provider or Parliament. The Bill includes provision for complaints to the ombudsman within two years of the first acquisition of the new-build property, which aligns with the developer liability period under most new-build warranties. I was shocked to find out that within a warranty it is for the first two years that developer liability is covered; the rest is covered through some form of warranty or insurance scheme to 10 years in private housing or 12 years in social or public housing. It is in this period that issues are much more likely to be raised in relation to snagging or the home-buying process. We believe that the proposal to extend this to six years would be unnecessary and would introduce a new unknown burden on members of the scheme. But I assure noble Lords that home buyers will retain their existing rights to seek redress in law and elsewhere in this Bill. With this reassurance, I hope that the noble Lord will be content not to press his amendments, and the Government will continue to consider how and where practices in this area could be improved.

I did say—if I may go a little bit further on that note —that we need to think about warranties, but we should also remember the Defective Premises Act, which has a statute of limitations of only six years. We are proposing to extend that prospectively to 15 years, hoping that there will be a culture change and a stronger regulatory environment, and 15 years is a reasonable timeframe to expect to seek redress—and then, retrospectively, 30 years. I am having those discussions and debates with my colleagues and the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, because I consider breaches of regulations, even going back 25 or 28 years, as a crime. It is a crime to breach building regulations, and there should be no statute of limitations for some of the crimes that we have seen, where we are putting flammable materials on the outside of the buildings, not having compartmentalisation, and having inadequate fire stopping, or fire doors that do not act as fire doors. All that I consider to be essentially breaches of building regulations, and we need to go after the perpetrators. But that is for another group of amendments—for the perpetrator pays or polluter pays—in due course.

Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Thurlow and Lord Greenhalgh

Committee stage
Monday 21st February 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Thurlow (CB)]

My Lords, I want to say a few words on PDR. It has been well exercised. First, I should declare my interests: I have practised for many years as a chartered surveyor and have two buy-to-let properties.

PDR is mentioned specifically by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in Amendment 135 and in Amendment 43 by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman of Ullock and Lady Pinnock. I think that PDR is a time bomb, I am afraid; I am sorry to say that. Conversions of redundant office buildings allowed as of right led to poor-quality developments. They are multi-let properties with many risks involved, and they are very recent conversions. They are taking place as we speak with little supervision. Developers who ignore the simple standards of fenestration, minimum square footage for a decent life, thermal insulation and other such things, as is happening today, are unlikely to respect building safety issues. PDR was hasty legislation. It was poorly thought through, then there was a scramble to tighten it up as it was extended. It is essential that this Bill addresses the PDR problem. I started by saying that it is a time bomb. If the Bill does not address it, it will go off. There will be tragedies as a result of PDR and those in society who are least able to defend themselves often end up as the tenants.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I think I should start by dealing with something that probably relates to the previous group. I am sorry that so many noble Lords have had such arduous journeys to get to the Moses Room today and then, having journeyed so far and so slowly, come to a Room that is so positively chilling. It is quite arduous at the best of times.

Just for clarification, in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, the high-risk regime includes hospitals and those care homes of six storeys and above. Essentially, it is those around 18 metres—there or thereabouts—but not in occupation, because different regimes apply to them, although the fire safety order applies to the whole built environment. I hope that gives clarity on the current scope.

I set myself the task of trying to encapsulate quite a varied set of amendments in each group in three words or fewer. I have called this the “strengthening building regulations” group: I will try and get three words down to two the next time I have to do this. I thank noble Lords for their contributions to what has been an interesting debate. I will respond to each amendment in turn.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, for his amendment giving the building safety regulator the power to make building regulations under paragraphs 4A and 4B of Schedule 1 to the Building Act 1984, as inserted by the Sustainable and Secure Buildings Act 2004. However, I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept this amendment as his intention has already been met in the Bill. We are introducing a more stringent regulatory regime in design and construction for higher-risk buildings, as defined in Part 3. The higher-risk regime will be the responsibility of the building safety regulator. We are also making wider changes to the Building Act 1984 that will apply to all buildings.

I point out to your Lordships that Sections 8 and 9 of the Sustainable and Secure Buildings Act 2004, referred to in the amendment, insert paragraphs 4A, under “Certification of work”, and 4B, under “Appointed person and management of works” into Schedule 1 to the Building Act 1984. As part of our improvements to the 1984 Act, the Bill repeals those paragraphs and replaces them with more effective powers via Clauses 32 and 33. These are more effective, stronger and wide-ranging powers. Clauses 32 and 33 provide powers for building regulations to set procedural requirements relating to building control, the issue of notices and certificates and requirements regarding appointments. They include setting out duties to be imposed on relevant persons in relation to building work. We also consider that the power to make building regulations should remain with the Secretary of State. This will ensure a consistent approach to all buildings; the Bill already provides that the building safety regulator will be able to advise the Secretary of State should it consider changes to the building regulations to be necessary. I thank the noble Lord for suggesting these amendments and respectfully ask him not to press them.

I always get worried—this is a new combination, as they say—when an amendment brings the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Pinnock, together. On Amendment 11, it is the Workington warrior and the Yorkshire terrier combined. I am trembling in my boots at the thought of Amendment 11 but let us look at it carefully. I thank the noble Baronesses for raising this important matter but I am afraid that the Government will not be able to accept this amendment. The Bill takes a proportionate approach to building control. In the new system, all building inspectors, regardless of whether they work for local authorities, the building safety regulator or registered building control approvers, will need to register with the building safety regulator. As part of the registration process, they will have to demonstrate their competence by meeting certain criteria.

A new framework of operational standards rules will define the minimum performance standards that building control bodies must meet, and the building safety regulator will monitor and analyse the performance of building control bodies to drive up standards across the sector. Registered building control approvers and building control authorities will need to obtain and consider the advice of a registered building inspector before carrying out certain building control functions and use a registered building inspector to undertake certain activities. This greater scrutiny and accountability will provide greater incentive to ensure all buildings, including non-higher-risk buildings, are safe. With that explanation, I respectfully ask the noble Baronesses not to press their amendment.

I turn to Amendment 43. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, for raising this important matter. I am afraid the Government will not be able to accept the amendment, as our assessment is that it would not achieve its intended effect. I assure the noble Baroness that paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Building Act 1984 already allows for the making of provision in the building regulations for all categories of buildings, as do the new powers that we are taking in Clause 32.

We are introducing a more stringent regulatory regime in design and construction, led by the building safety regulator, for high-rise residential buildings, care homes and hospitals that are 18 metres or more in height, or at least seven storeys, known in the Bill as “higher-risk” buildings. Those buildings to which this more stringent regime applies have been chosen to ensure that the regulation is proportionate to the level of risk, should a spreading fire or structural failure occur. We do not think it appropriate to apply the entire regime to all buildings. However, where appropriate, we intend to make elements applicable to all buildings, such as the duty-holder and competence requirements, which will apply to all building work where building regulations apply.

I turn to Amendment 127. I again thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, for raising matters relating to flood resilience. I appreciate the passion with which she outlined her desire to get this issue addressed, particularly in new homes, but I am afraid the Government will not be able to accept this amendment. I assure her that there is already a well-established regulatory system in place to ensure new homes have necessary flood-mitigation measures in place. The National Planning Policy Framework is clear that inappropriate development in areas at risk of flooding should be avoided. Where development is necessary, it should be made safe and resilient without increasing flood risk elsewhere. Policies in that framework must be taken into account in preparing the local authority’s development plan and are a material consideration in planning decisions.

The new clause that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, has proposed would require flood resilience measures to be introduced into the building regulations. Statutory guidance to the building regulations, in approved document C, already promotes the use of flood-resilient and resistant construction in flood-prone areas. Part H of the regulations also sets requirements for the rainwater and surface water drainage of individual buildings. The main sewerage system for a development is governed by the sewerage undertaker for the area—for example, Thames Water. The sewerage undertaker has the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that drainage systems for new developments are built to a resilient standard that minimises flooding, and these duties sit outside the building regulations system.

I thank the noble Baroness for suggesting the amendment. I hope I have reassured the Committee that the Government already have well-established means of making sure that consideration of flood risk and flood mitigation is thoroughly accounted for in the planning system, and that approved document C already promotes flood-resistant and resilient construction. For these reasons, we believe that introducing new requirements into the building regulations is not necessary.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for reminding me that I should probably declare my commercial and residential property interests—none of which has any cladding issues—as set out in the register, specifically on the amendment around permitted development rights because I have benefited from those in the past, though probably will not do so in the future. I recognise the risk that he has outlined and that is why I thought I should declare those interests.

Amendment 135 seeks to ensure that homes delivered under permitted development rights—PDR—for change of use to residential meet the provisions of this Bill. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for raising this important matter, but I am afraid the Government will not be able to accept this amendment. This is getting quite repetitive, really, is it not? However, the noble Lord is raising an important point and I assure him that planning permission, whether granted by a permitted development right or following an application to the local planning authority, does not remove the need to comply with other legal requirements. That means all new homes and buildings must meet, for example, the relevant building regulations and fire safety requirements, as well as any other legal requirements required under other legislation, regardless of whether they are permitted through a permitted development right or following an application for planning permission.

We introduced a number of new requirements into the planning system, called planning gateway 1, from 1 August 2021. These ensure that fire safety matters as they relate to land-use planning are incorporated at the planning stage for schemes involving a relevant high-rise residential building. For schemes that use permitted development rights, a similar requirement has been introduced. Through new prior approval processes, proposals to create a relevant high-rise residential building under the rights require submission of a statement about the fire safety design principles, concepts and standards that have been applied to the development. Consultation by the local planning authority with the Health and Safety Executive is required for residential buildings of 18 metres or more in height or seven or more storeys, whichever is reached first.

Once again, I thank noble Lords for this interesting debate. I hope that I have given some reassurance on each amendment, and that noble Lords will now withdraw or not press their respective amendments.

Buildings: Cladding

Debate between Lord Thurlow and Lord Greenhalgh

Thursday 28th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we recognise the need to get those who contributed greatly to the crisis that we find ourselves in to make a contribution. This is just one of the ways we are doing this. It was announced that the residential property developer tax would be levied on developers with profits over £25 million, at a rate of 4%. The estimates from the Treasury are that that will bring in at least £2 billion. That is the commitment over 10 years. We also have the gateway 2 levy, which will raise funding as well. This will also contribute towards the situation that leaseholders find themselves in.

[Lord Thurlow (CB)]

The principal difficulty with this cladding issue is cost. Why do the Government not take the most obvious step, and pursue the French company that manufactured the faulty cladding in the first place? It is a company that seems to be burying its head in the sands of Paris.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, there is no doubt that a number of groups, beyond developers, have contributed to the cladding crisis, not least the construction product manufacturers—the noble Lord mentioned the French manufacturer—and many other professionals who did not build these building to the standard of building regulations at the time. We are looking, with fresh eyes, at how we can hold them to account.

Homeowners: Cladding-related Costs

Debate between Lord Thurlow and Lord Greenhalgh

Thursday 24th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Unfortunately, we are aware of cases such as that my noble friend has raised with me; I thank him for drawing it to my attention. It is shameful that some building owners would rather refuse the Government’s offer of funding and push unaffordable costs on to innocent leaseholders than take responsibility for ensuring that their residents are safe. The conditions for government funding are designed to ensure that residents are protected from shoddy or delayed remediation works. As they are taxpayer funded, we require building owners to make reasonable efforts, claiming costs back from developers using warranties where possible.

[Lord Thurlow (CB) [V]]

One solution to funding remedial work following Grenfell is to take robust action against the French manufacturers Arconic and its then-parent Saint-Gobain, which supplied the defective panels. Following concerns over the safety of these panels in France, I read that they withdrew them from sale in their own country yet continued selling them in the UK. This is disgraceful and ethically dishonest. What action are the Government taking to demand compensation from Arconic and/or Saint-Gobain? It should not be a UK taxpayer burden.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we have to let the inquiry take its course, but we recognise that deficiencies in testing have been thrown up, so the Secretary of State has commissioned an expert group to look at construction products testing. We are establishing a new regulatory regime as well.

Non-Domestic Rating (Lists) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Thurlow and Lord Greenhalgh

3rd reading
Tuesday 9th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thurlow (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is a privilege to be asked to make the concluding remarks from the Cross Benches as we complete the passage of this Bill. I congratulate the Minister on steering it through, notwithstanding unsuccessful attempts—certainly from me—to divert the debate down other routes and related avenues. However, it is fair to say that we have been debating this in something of a straitjacket; those of us interested in non-domestic rates had nowhere to turn, try as we might—indeed, try as we did—to draw the failings of the NDR system to the Minister’s attention. He was perfectly within his rights to wear his benign smile throughout—and a tremendous smile it is. Why a straitjacket? Because it is a two-clause Bill, strictly focused on timing alone, to which there were only two amendments; I am aware of the frustrations of at least one other Peer who wished to table one and was unable to do so within the scope of the straitjacket. I congratulate the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Moynihan, on successfully navigating these restrictions and tabling their well-founded amendments, both of which I was happy to support.

There are important implications in changing the dates for compiling the lists to two years’ time; I do not disagree with the principle, but I am concerned that the valuation date for determining rateable value, as we have just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, is within weeks. Without rehearsing the valuable and revealing contributions at earlier stages, it would be unwise to ignore the fact that retail and office markets are in crisis. Retail values are in freefall and office values are in pandemic-related confusion as businesses reassess their space occupancy needs. How on earth can the Valuation Office Agency determine rental value in these conditions? I wish it well.

There will inevitably be dramatic reductions in rateable values and a corresponding fall in local authority revenues. Unless the rate poundage is increased, when rates paid could exceed rent, that would be a lightning rod to disaster and a knife to the heart of the small business retail sector in that retail economy. Will the Chancellor continue to support the sector, or could we expect those who do not pay enough to compensate for those who pay too much? I am afraid that, regrettably, the Amazons of this world that do not pay enough will not make up the shortfall.

To conclude, I say to the Minister that I see some light in this dark place I describe. At every stage of the debate in this House, we have had reference to the fundamental review already mentioned. This is the real opportunity to introduce fairness across the landscape of NDR—sadly delayed but vital and urgent. I very much look forward to its publication and the chance for us all to consider it in the shape of a new Bill, no doubt steered by the Minister and his generous smile. I hope, for the sake of the smaller business sector, that it does not arrive too late.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, this has indeed been a very narrow Bill but a very broad discussion. I thank noble Lords for the many points that have been raised during its passage, particularly in considering how we can support our town centres, especially our high streets, that give such a high quality of life to the residents of our towns and cities.

I point out to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, that we are very clear that we will ensure that we keep a close eye on the impact of timings as this exercise is carried out and that we intend to look at the future of business rates. However, that is predicated on the fundamental review of business rates taking place later this year. I also assure the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, that, as far as is practical, local authorities’ finance will be protected via the business rates retention scheme and other measures to ensure that there should be no material impact on local authority finances.

A number of issues have been raised, and it has been an important Bill.

Planning Process: Probity

Debate between Lord Thurlow and Lord Greenhalgh

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh]

I note my noble friend’s point about the strength of feeling locally about the location of this memorial, although I will not comment on a specific planning matter. I am sure that the decision will be determined entirely appropriately and in line with the department’s guidelines on ministerial involvement in planning decisions.

[Lord Thurlow (CB) [V]]

For our planning process to work effectively, it must be transparent, and decisions balanced and fair. However, for the public to read that both the Prime Minister and Mr Jenrick had private discussions with Mr Desmond or his team to sponsor a development worth hundreds of millions of pounds shortly before consent was granted is unacceptable, regardless of any questions of probity. Does the Minister not agree that this case should be reopened and reviewed?

[Lord Greenhalgh]

To be absolutely clear, those discussions over the development simply did not occur. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State was seated next to Mr Desmond. That was not of his choosing. The matter was raised by Mr Desmond and the Secretary of State refused to comment on the planning application. The position that we are now in is that to ensure that there is no inference of bias, as I said in a previous answer, this matter will be determined, as agreed, with the Mayor of London and the planning authority for Tower Hamlets.