Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Palmer of Childs Hill

Tuesday 29th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, I am very much concerned as to what the ombudsman thinks he can do when he has an issue before him. If he foresees or realises that there is a culture within a particular unit in the Armed Forces that involves bullying, initiation ceremonies or matters of that sort, what can he do? Is he restricted simply to reporting on an individual complaint or is he entitled to tell the defence counsel that there is a much more serious widespread issue here that has to be tackled?

When we discussed this in Committee, the Minister said that the Bill already offered,

“sufficient scope for the ombudsman to raise wider issues in appropriate ways, as they see necessary, and to provide an input to investigations or inquiries conducted by other appropriate bodies”.—[Official Report, 9/7/14; col. 243.]

It would seem from that reply—and I have had discussions with the Bill team—that the ombudsman would be entitled to file a report, and not just an annual report but a report from time to time, in which he could draw the attention of the defence counsel to thematic abuse that he has seen, from the consideration of a number of individual cases. If the Minister can confirm that, many of the concerns that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and I have expressed will be met. But it is not clear from the Bill’s wording, and I look forward to what the Minister says.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, I draw attention to a couple of words in Amendment 5— “compelling circumstances”. I did not invent those words; they came from the Canadian legislation on this subject. I have always been a great believer that you should not reinvent the wheel when another Administration, and a member of the Commonwealth, have in their ombudsman regulations the provision for the ombudsman to carry out an investigation “in compelling circumstances”—so it is not just as a normal, run-of-the-mill decision. I hope that the Minister at some stage, even at Third Reading, can somehow give the ombudsman that additional power if the compelling circumstances should arise.

Armed Forces (Service Complaints and Financial Assistance) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Palmer of Childs Hill

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I shall speak to Amendment 10, which is in my name and that of my noble friends. I follow very much the thinking of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. I think that the first paragraph of my amendment, which states that the ombudsman,

“shall investigate any matter referred to the Ombudsman by written direction of the Defence Council”,

puts clearly the Defence Council’s power to give such a written direction. I find the power given in proposed new Section 340O(6) to be slightly confusing. It is under the heading, “Annual report on system for dealing with service complaints”, but it is not at all clear that that is a wide power for the ombudsman to investigate something beyond the preparation of a report and the points on which the ombudsman makes a report in that document.

The ombudsman should have a clear power to investigate matters referred to him. Under paragraph (b) of my amendment, I argue, as has the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, that it is in the public interest that the ombudsman should on his own motion, after advising the Defence Council,

“carry out an investigation of any allegations of systemic abuse or injustice if it appears to him to be in the public interest”.

We have qualified that by saying that there should be compelling circumstances. It is not that the ombudsman could justify investigating anything. It may very well be that, in the course of the investigation of individual complaints, it will come to the attention of the ombudsman that there is a culture of abuse or bullying in a particular area. He may well feel that he would have to investigate that on his own initiative, and not await instruction, following his annual report, from the Secretary of State.

As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, pointed out, this has the support of the committee that has looked into it, and I hope that the Minister will be open to amending the Act—if not in the precise words that I have put forward, then certainly in the spirit of my amendment.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill]

My Lords, perhaps I may add just a few words to those of the noble Lord and my noble friend. I spoke about this at Second Reading and gave examples of the Canadian authorities. The words “compelling circumstances” were taken exactly from what the Canadians do—to give the ombudsman the power so that he or she can, in compelling circumstances, do what my noble friend Lord Thomas has described. I hope that the Government will consider examples from overseas which we can incorporate into our legislation.