Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Goodhart

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goodhart]

My Lords, I agree entirely with what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has just said. Referral fees have for some years been a serious problem in almost all circumstances and have caused a great deal of trouble and unnecessary expense. It is not a case where, as the Labour Party has just proposed, it should be treated just as a matter where two firms are in business. This is a matter that requires to be removed.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, in my youth I appeared for insurers and unions, and I did not pay anybody to get those cases. We competed on quality. The competition was there so that unions and insurers would send their work where they thought that they would get the best service, not where they thought that they would get the largest fee. It is insidious for fees to be paid to purchase cases from any organisation, whether it is a union or even the finest charity. It is not right that unions and charities should fund themselves in this way. The noble Lord has made the case from the point of view of unions and charities being funded. One has to look at it the other way round. Why should firms of solicitors or even barristers’ chambers—I have heard rumours about this—get work on the basis of how much they pay a person referring cases to them? It is a practice which has to stop.

Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Goodhart

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it is helpful to put this order into some context. The corporate manslaughter provisions were considered by the Independent Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody. When one looks at the statistics on page 9 of the report, which was a joint Ministry of Justice and Home Office report, one sees that in 1999 there were 643 deaths in state custody. That number has reduced in the past two years to 483 and 366, but that is a lot of people who have died in custody. It is important that there should be corporate responsibility, not simply for claims of negligence but for criminal claims. We are very pleased that this order is now being introduced.

I have two questions for the Minister. One relates to service custody. Do I take it that the Ministry of Defence could be criminally liable for a death in service custody abroad? The other matter that concerns me is whether the private organisations that provide prison accommodation and in particular transport come within the provisions of the Act, so that any default on their part means that they will be subject to criminal liability as well as to liability in civil law.

[Lord Goodhart]

My Lords, I would like to step in briefly on this matter. The law dealing with the liability of corporations for offences, or matters for which the corporation has been responsible, has been inadequate in recent years. In particular, to make the corporation liable for homicide, as in this case, or for other purposes, it has been necessary for it to be shown that not only was the corporation itself negligent but that negligence could be attributed to a directive member of the corporation. Therefore, I very much welcome this particular piece of this particular order.

I should mention also that a recent and important change in this law came into effect a couple of days ago with the Bribery Act, which makes liability for bribery subject not to any particular identification of any particular individual who is responsible but simply to the incompetence of the corporation itself. Therefore, I very much welcome this particular amendment.