Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Elis-Thomas

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister, who is an old colleague of mine—sorry, not an old colleague but a former colleague—in the National Assembly. His great achievement then, which I have alluded to before, even in this place perhaps, was converting the Welsh Conservative Party into a Welsh Conservative Party and a pro-devolution Conservative Party, as we saw most firmly yesterday in the National Assembly vote. He has excelled that contribution in the way that he has taken this legislation through this House. If I may, I want to link him to what is a very important memory for many of us. He ranks up there with the late, great Gareth Williams QC, who took us through the very early stages of devolution in this House. I cannot pay him a higher compliment than that.

The Minister kindly referred to our debate yesterday. I am not going to rise to the bait and have a spat with my noble friend about the way that the parties voted. However, it did strike me as interesting that the United Kingdom Independence Party and the party of Wales ended up in electronic harmony—we do not have Lobbies in the National Assembly—voting against a measure of Welsh devolution, even if it was for different reasons. The debate we had there was reasonable and reasoned. It was necessary to have that debate and that vote because, as the Minister has told this House before, we could not have proceeded to complete our stages without that legislative consent Motion.

That leads me to another conclusion that we can, I hope, take from our proceedings on this legislation, both in the National Assembly and in this House. Last week, I ventured to mention that we had perhaps finished a chapter of doing things in a certain way in relation to Welsh devolution. I believe we have now, potentially, reached a level of consensus, certainly between the main parties of devolution, as we saw in yesterday’s debate in the Assembly.

Perhaps we can now move, in the spirit of the agreement for legislative consent and the agreement that this House has achieved through reasoned discussion with the Welsh Government and the Constitutional Affairs Committee of the National Assembly, towards a form of co-legislating. Certainly we should look for early drafts of any proposed future developments in devolution, rather than this hand-me-down form of Westminster legislating on behalf of Wales. I put that suggestion forward not in a spirit of controversy but because I believe it is the way to achieve the consolidation championed by one of the most distinguished former Secretaries of State for Wales.

On that point, the noble Lord neglected to include himself in the list of the promoters of devolution. Although he tries now to present himself as an anti-devolutionist, during his period as Secretary of State he achieved more Executive devolution than did any other Secretary of State. It is important that we remember those days because, without the Executive devolution led by the Conservative Party in Wales, we would never have had the basis for the powers now devolved further in this Bill. I am afraid I include him as well in the pantheon of devolutionists, where he likes it or not.

I add my own thanks to Geth Williams. I remember working with him and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in a previous Government. I recognise the quality that he and the officers and lawyers of the Wales Office bring. I also thank the lawyers of the Welsh Government who participated in these discussions and the lawyers of the National Assembly Commission, particularly those advising the Constitutional Affairs Committee of the Assembly, of which I am proud to have served as a member in two Assemblies—although not for the whole time, for reasons which I will not go into tonight.

I pay tribute to the present Constitutional Affairs Committee in the Assembly for its rapid turnaround in producing those “critical friend” reports on the Bill; to its current chair, a former Member of the House of Commons, Huw Irranca-Davies; and to its previous chair, David Melding, who has been such a distinguished Member of the Assembly, and among the deep, caring, great Conservative constitutionalists of Wales. I thank the First Minister for his constant support on these matters and the Counsel General. In addition, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Morgan. It is not an easy job to work both sides of the railway line but we had the happy experience of sharing the same train this morning, so were able to congratulate each other, and the Minister in his absence, on the progress we have made together on this Bill. I link with that my friend the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, whose contributions have always been philosophical and sometimes prophetic—a great Welsh tradition.

We thank all noble Lords for their contributions. We know that through the progress of this Bill we have achieved a further significant milestone in the progress of devolution. I am not here to speculate as to what will happen next but, whatever does happen, will be on the firm basis of the reserved powers model, which is constitutionally congruent even if not as extensive as what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom, and for that I thank the Minister and this Government deeply.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, some 3,000 years ago, Homer wrote in the Iliad that after the battle men like to reminisce about their prowess in the fight. Some 10 or 15 years ago the tributes and thanks were getting so extensive that the decision was taken that such tributes would no longer be heard at Third Reading. However, just as referring to people at the Bar is now commonplace—any Member of Parliament or Minister who comes to the Bar tends to get a mention these days—so that tradition, in which I firmly stand, has been eroded. Therefore, I confine myself to thanking the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, who has done a brilliant job in listening to all the complaints, some of which were completely without foundation. He has reacted very well. Lastly, I thank my noble friend Lady Randerson, who was part of the team in the coalition Government when the Bill was in its infancy. She played an important part in framing the way it progressed.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Elis-Thomas

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, I have no wish to detain the House but I want to place on the record on behalf of my noble friend Lord Wigley and myself, both of us former Members of the National Assembly. In fact, I am still a Member—so far—dependent on the will of the electorate, as were the Minister and her colleague on the Front Bench. I thank the Government for their very positive response on all these matters. I should like to refer in particular to one great joy as regards this Bill, which is the passing of a phrase with which I have always had constitutional difficulty: the Welsh Assembly Government.

First of all we were the Welsh Assembly. That meant all of us—the whole family of legislators, officials and Ministers, or rather secretaries in those days. Then we went through a transitional period as the Welsh Assembly Government. Now, thank goodness, we are the Welsh Government for Plaid Cymru and the National Assembly for Wales, and long may we remain so.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I have been talking about devolution and independence with the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, since around 1962 when we were both solicitors in Wrexham. Indeed, I even voted for him in 1964 when he was a Plaid Cymru candidate. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, will be interested to know that. Thereafter we developed our ideas on devolution and it was those ideas, which we produced in 1967 in a Bill in the House of Commons and here that was taken up and considered by the Kilbrandon commission, to which I gave evidence. I say all this because of the history that everyone has been giving.

This Bill is just a step; it is not the end. I notice today that the Glasgow Herald says that the intention of the Smith commission is to introduce votes at 16 for the next Scottish Parliament elections. If that happens in Scotland, I am sure it is going to happen in Wales. Similarly, it has been said that Scotland may very well be looking for an airport tax. If that happens in Scotland, to the delight of the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, it will necessarily come to Wales as well. There are further steps to be taken before we have the complete and satisfactory home rule that the noble Lord and I dreamed of over 50 years ago.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Elis-Thomas

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, mistakes were made by the Labour Government in the first place with the electoral system that they chose. First past the post had to be maintained under any conceivable circumstance and the only way in which proportionality could be introduced was by way of the list system. Certainly, you can abolish the list system and replace it with the single transferable vote. We, on this side of the House, who argued for that in the first place, would willingly go along with it. One of the consequences of the Labour Government choosing, in 1998, to put in the system that they did was that a person could then stand both as a list candidate and as a constituency candidate. It is all very well talking about being rejected by the electorate. Where you have a first past the post system, you can have a political party with substantial following throughout the country—I am thinking about an up and coming party at the present time—which may win no seats at all. The system that was introduced in 1998 of being able to stand in two places was simply as a result of the Government at that time rejecting our argument for the single transferable vote. The sooner we get to that system, the better.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—perhaps he has already sat down—does he agree with me that, if we went for a single transferable vote system throughout Wales, that would immediately make the regions the constituencies rather than the present constituencies because, clearly, for STV to work there would have to be a broader area of representation?

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I accept the logic of that. We have always argued for it and will continue to do so.

Scotland: Devolution

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Elis-Thomas

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it was a great pleasure to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, deal with the most outstanding achievement of the Welsh Labour Government, and that is to put a charge of 5p on plastic bags.

Home rule is a Liberal invention. Mr Gladstone said in Aberdeen in September 1871:

“This United Kingdom which we have endeavoured to make a united kingdom in heart as well as in law, will, we trust, remain a united kingdom. If the doctrines of Home Rule are to be established in Ireland, I protest on your behalf that you will be just as well entitled to it in Scotland. Moreover I protest on behalf of Wales, in which I have lived a good deal and where there are 800,000 people who to this day, such is their sentiment of nationality, speak hardly anything but their own Celtic tongue—I protest on behalf of Wales that they are entitled to Home Rule there”.

Mr Lloyd George echoed those sentiments in 1891, calling for “Home Rule all round”. Jo Grimond believed that power was not to come top-down, as the noble Baroness said, but to spring up from the people. He wrote:

“I find it difficult to see how, if the case for Scottish and Welsh self-government is accepted at all, any powers can be reserved to the UK government except foreign affairs, defence, and the wider issues of economic policy linked to a common currency and common trade policies”.

This was the model in the Hooson Bill for a Welsh Parliament in 1967, which I drafted myself.

Home Rule is not independence. We in Wales agree with Mr Gladstone that this is a United Kingdom of the heart, as much as of political economy. The first impact of the Scottish referendum on Wales was to reduce the support for independence for Wales from 7% to 3%. This was according to a BBC random poll of over a 1,000 adult respondents between September 19 and 22. This is not in the least surprising. Welsh nationalism has always been focused more on cultural identity, tinged perhaps with a little bit of arson, rather than political power. The Scottish referendum campaigns revealed only too starkly the impact that independence was likely to have upon the economy in the relocation of banks and of industry, upon the pound in the pocket, upon relationships world-wide, upon defence obligations and upon jobs.

It was argued by the yes campaign that Scotland paid more in taxes than it received; it would easily be more than self-sufficient, and they could afford to go their own way without detriment to the people. This calculation, dubious in itself, was in any event dependent upon the total success of all their claims in negotiations with the rest of the United Kingdom. That assumed a hearty goodwill and a desire on the part of the taxpayers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland to underwrite the economy and banking system of an independent country north of a newly defined border. It was a fantasy.

Wales is not Scotland. We raise in taxes only 70% of the money we spend. It is not because we are weak or poor in ability or ingenuity; it is because our basic industries of coal, slate and steel are exhausted. Wales shares its wealth, as the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said. We did not call it Welsh coal when it was mined.

However, today, according to key economic indicators published by the Office for National Statistics last July, we are the poorest part of the United Kingdom. We had hoped that a devolved Government would lift us economically, but it has not happened. Public services in education and health are falling behind England. It is clear that a devolved Government in Wales requires some form of equalisation funding.

The Barnett formula, while generous to Scotland, as the noble Lord, Lord Lang, pointed out, underfunds Wales, according to the Holtham commission, to the tune of some £300 million a year. We need fair funding: a needs-based formula which would restore parity to our communities and our public services. As an immediate stop-gap, the Holtham commission recommended a “Barnett flaw”. If anybody wants to know what that is, perhaps they would like to buy me a drink afterwards and I will explain.

In the medium term, a formula must be devised which takes into account an ageing population in Wales, the additional health burdens which mark a post-industrial society, but above all the need to revive and develop the Welsh economy and create jobs. I remain wholly committed to devolution. There are signs of progress. The coalition agreement in paragraph 24 recognised the concerns of the Holtham commission and undertook to establish a process similar to the Calman commission in Scotland. This resulted in the Silk commission and we are currently putting through this House part 1 of its proposals, which will chiefly introduce borrowing and taxation powers. It is a sad commentary that the Government in Wales refuse to hold the referendum which would bring those taxation powers into operation.

We also have it in our Liberal Democrat manifesto to implement part 2 of the Silk commission, which will move Wales to the reserved powers model called for—

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

Did I hear the noble Lord right? Did he accuse the Government of Wales of refusing to hold a referendum on taxation powers? How can a Government possibly hold a referendum on something which has not yet been passed by this House?

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I am sorry, I did not quite catch what the noble Lord said.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to intervene again. I heard him imply that the Welsh Government had refused to hold a referendum on tax-varying powers in Wales. How is it that a Welsh Government, or any other Government, for that matter, can hold a referendum on a matter which has not yet been legislated?

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

That is the stated policy of the First Minister of Wales, as the noble Lord knows perfectly well.

We have in our own manifesto the intention to implement part 2 of the Silk commission, which will move Wales to the reserved powers model that was called for by Jo Grimond and which operates at the moment both in Scotland and Northern Ireland. We hope that normal political processes will operate to install in the Assembly a Government which will use the levers that they are being given to deliver the infrastructure upon which an expanding economy depends: outstanding education in accordance with Welsh traditions and a healthy NHS. Let us see if Scotland can match us then.