Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am a lawyer, but I have no idea what Clause 3(5) means. I look forward to the Minister explaining it because what is being referred to if,

“power to make laws other than that of the Assembly is disregarded”?

I have no idea at all.

On Amendment 44, I believe in consolidation but I do not know that I believe in this particular amendment. The law affecting Wales will be what one might call Acts of the Assembly, subordinate legislation under Acts of the Assembly and legacy law—that is to say, if in devolved areas the law in England moves on, the provisions which previously applied to Wales will continue. In devolved areas, the Westminster Government may decide to change the law as a result of policy, leaving Wales with the legacy. Proposed new Section 108B says on consolidation that:

“Nothing in this Act prevents the Assembly restating … the provisions of any enactment that provide for the government of Wales”.

What does that refer to? Is it the legacy law and, if so, how does the Assembly restate it?

Subsection (2) of the proposed new section in Amendment 44 really makes me puzzle. It says that the Secretary of State—presumably, the Secretary of State for Wales—

“may by regulations repeal the provisions of any enactment … restated by the Assembly in accordance with subsection (1)”,

so whatever mechanism restatement is supposed to be, the Secretary of State here in Gwydyr House can repeal it. The Assembly may make this pronouncement: “We are following the law that previously applied to England and Wales but England has moved on. We are continuing the law as it was previously stated in Wales”. Then the Secretary of State for Wales comes along and repeals it, not by any legislation but simply by statutory instrument on an affirmative resolution by each House of Parliament. I really do not know what this consolidation means. I agree with my noble friend Lady—

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

Randerson.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My noble friend Lady Randerson. I was getting my names mixed up for a moment. She said the other day that it is—as a matter of fact, I have forgotten what she said so I shall leave it at that.

Welsh Government: Fracking

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord should take into account the process that is under way. The Secretary of State has set great store by the fact that he wants to achieve political consensus across the four parties in Wales. The Welsh Government are involved, of course, and they have made it clear what their views are on the need to offer powers to the Welsh Government if they have been offered to Scotland. However, what is right for Scotland is not necessarily always right for Wales, and discussions are still ongoing.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, within 10 miles of my home in Gresford in north Wales—its second mention this morning—there were in 1866 some 21 shale oil extraction plants, selling petrol at three shillings and four pence per gallon. Two years later it had fallen to 10 pence a gallon and the industry was completely wrecked. Is Welsh shale oil as sound a basis for Welsh independence—which 3% of the people of Wales want, including the noble Lord—as, for example, North Sea oil is for Scotland?

[Baroness Randerson]

My noble friend illustrates the volatility of energy prices, then as now. From current reports, the potential for significant amounts of shale gas in Wales is unclear. However, I agree with my noble friend: the recent big falls in the oil price have illustrated the shaky financial foundations on which the Scottish independence campaign was based.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I have been talking about devolution and independence with the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, since around 1962 when we were both solicitors in Wrexham. Indeed, I even voted for him in 1964 when he was a Plaid Cymru candidate. The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, will be interested to know that. Thereafter we developed our ideas on devolution and it was those ideas, which we produced in 1967 in a Bill in the House of Commons and here that was taken up and considered by the Kilbrandon commission, to which I gave evidence. I say all this because of the history that everyone has been giving.

This Bill is just a step; it is not the end. I notice today that the Glasgow Herald says that the intention of the Smith commission is to introduce votes at 16 for the next Scottish Parliament elections. If that happens in Scotland, I am sure it is going to happen in Wales. Similarly, it has been said that Scotland may very well be looking for an airport tax. If that happens in Scotland, to the delight of the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, it will necessarily come to Wales as well. There are further steps to be taken before we have the complete and satisfactory home rule that the noble Lord and I dreamed of over 50 years ago.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I shall respond briefly to the salient points that have been made in this, our last debate. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred to the words of the Prime Minister. Perhaps I may point out to him the solid steps that have been taken since 19 September. The Cabinet Committee has been established under the chairmanship of William Hague. The Secretary of State is of course a member of that committee and, indeed, I attend as well when Wales is being discussed. I would also point to the establishment of cross-party discussions here in Westminster. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State will also be in discussions with the leaders of the Assembly groups. We have made the announcement which has been referred to on numerous occasions in our debates of the date of 1 March, St David’s Day, by when we expect to have resolved the issues to a sufficient extent to be able to produce a reserved powers framework for future legislation in respect of Wales. That will deal with the proposals for additional powers in Silk 2, in so far as there is cross-party agreement relating to the size of the Assembly. Silk 2 was accepted by the Deputy Prime Minister in his role of leader of his party. The long-standing devolution credentials of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, are well known and respected by this House. The recent Supreme Court judgment has made it imperative that the issue of the reserved powers model is dealt with.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord’s point of view.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, it seems that the exchange between the noble Lord and the noble and learned Lord has amply illustrated that there are two issues here. There are some offices, such as being a judge, for which standing even as a candidate would fundamentally undermine public confidence in their impartiality. A judge may be an obvious example, but there could be others at the edge. People might ask whether the Auditor-General for Wales, or a member of his staff, would be able to stand. On balance, people would probably agree that they should not be allowed to. But beyond that group there is another group, often consisting of councillors, and usually councillors representing political parties, who are nominated in their role as party members or as councillors elected on a party-political ticket to bodies funded by the Welsh Government. Therefore, their candidacy is not a problem. Everyone knows that they are there because of their political position, and their election to that position. But we would not wish them to remain on whatever board or group it is that they have been nominated to once they become Assembly Members, because the Assembly funds that organisation, so it is not appropriate for them to be both funder and funded.

Amendments 9 and 10 would implement a number of the recommendations, as my noble friend made clear, made in the report by the Constitution and Legislative Affairs Committee of the National Assembly for Wales. Amendment 10 would set out a list of disqualifying offices in this Bill, and provide that a candidate who holds a disqualifying office would not be banned from membership of the Assembly so long as they resigned that position within eight days of having been elected. As a result, Amendment 9 would also remove the power of the Assembly under the Government of Wales Act 2006 to resolve that a disqualification may be disregarded in specified circumstances.

When we debated similar amendments in Committee, I sympathised with noble Lords’ concerns that someone would need to step down from a disqualifying office in advance of nomination, even if, for instance, they were listed 12th on a party list and therefore had no realistic prospect of being elected. However, amending electoral legislation can be an immensely complicated affair, so making changes to the way in which Assembly Members are elected requires considerable discussion before it can be implemented—not least because, as my noble friend has indicated, this approach to disqualification is not limited to the Government of Wales Act but applies across all UK legislatures.

In fact, in its response to the report of the Constitution and Legislative Affairs Committee published last month, the Welsh Government recognised that:

“It is not likely to be possible to secure amendments to these provisions before the next Assembly elections in 2016”.

But in a debate on this issue in the Assembly just last week, the First Minister committed to working with the next Government to consider changes to the Assembly’s disqualification regime ahead of the 2021 Assembly election.

There is a good case for including,

“only those offices for which there is a strong case for inclusion”,—[Official Report, 13/10/14; col. 104.]

on this list. I am pleased that, following Committee, the First Minister wrote to the Secretary of State for Wales to give the Welsh Government’s assurance that this is indeed the approach they will follow in drafting the order. I therefore look forward to a very much slimmed-down list of disqualifying bodies whose members cannot stand for election. This is in the interests of attracting the strongest possible field of candidates, because, after all, those people well qualified and prepared for being candidates to the Assembly are very often those who already serve their communities on a number of such bodies.

The Wales Office will, of course, be working closely with the Welsh Government as they prepare their draft disqualification order. Further discussion will be required on the wider topic of disqualification from the Assembly. I thank my noble friend for introducing these amendments, as it has enabled us to shine a spotlight on this important issue and to liaise with the Welsh Government. There are agreements between the Welsh and UK Governments as a result of the amendments introduced here and of the report from the Assembly’s committee. Those two events have moved the debate on this issue on. Although action may not be taking place as quickly as my noble friend would like, we have the First Minister’s commitment that he will bring forward appropriate measures after the general election. I therefore urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for the work that has obviously been done in the Wales Office on this issue. Anyone standing as a candidate in the 2016 election will be very much on notice of this problem, and I hope it will not arise again. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I had misunderstood the basis of that committee, so I withdraw what I said first of all—that the last Labour Government addressed the Barnett formula. They clearly did not and it was a committee of this House, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, which did address it. The Government then ignored its findings. That is what I am told. I am told that there was a second committee but I am not particularly aware of it.

Where the problem really arises is that the Barnett formula is used as an excuse for the failures of the Welsh Labour Government in the fields of education and other devolved areas. They say, “We don’t get enough money”. As soon as I read of the vows given to the Scottish people by the three leaders, it seemed to me that at that moment the concept of having a formula that could apply equally in Scotland and Wales was dead because one surely has to decouple whatever funding formula eventually applies in Scotland when it exercises its powers from whatever formula happens in Wales when it exercises different and more limited powers. Accordingly, we need something specific to Wales through looking at the needs of its people as opposed simply to dividing money on a population basis.

The whole point of the social contract is that taxes are paid—not to be divided equally per head of population but so that services according to need can be paid for by the government of the day. That is the principle that must be the basis of the way in which Wales is funded in the future.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD)]

My Lords, as ever, a debate on the Barnett formula is interesting but I am afraid that from my perspective it is rather too well worn territory.

I start by responding to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, in relation to the £300 million to which he referred as the funding gap identified in the Holtham report. The gap has indeed come down in size and it would be very useful to determine the current shortfall. It is particularly important to point out that when the agreement was made between Jane Hutt and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in an exchange of letters in October 2012, it acknowledged that convergence had ceased to take place, that there was, in fact, divergence and that Welsh funding was within the region of what the Holtham report regarded as fair funding. Therefore, at the moment, there is not a major issue of unfair funding. There may be issues at the edge, but it is not a big problem at the moment, as was acknowledged by the Welsh Government. Of course, that does not solve the problem, because convergence is predicted to start again around 2018. That issue has to be addressed if the gap is not going to widen again. I agree that there is a need to deal with this in the scope of the devolution discussions because it distorts the political debate in Wales. Funding is quite simply blamed for every policy failure. Even if we take the figure of £300 million, in a budget of £15 billion, £300 million is a significant amount of money, but it is not something that could possibly be blamed for every health failure, every education failure and every social problem within Wales. It is not so massive that it is fundamental to the problems that we all acknowledge are faced in Welsh society.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is absolutely right in saying that it is the funding issue that the public are interested in. They do not worry too much in general about devolution, but they are interested in fair funding. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, referred to the Severn tolls. I look forward to our debates on that in the next Government. Whoever wins the election, there will be debates on the Severn tolls because, of course, the end of that franchise is due in the mid-years of the next Government.

I strongly welcome the acknowledgment by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, that the Labour Party did not deal with the problems of Barnett. Indeed, the Labour Party refused for 13 years to agree publicly that there was any problem with the Barnett formula and it was in those years that convergence was taking place and the funding gap was really growing. It would certainly be the case that Wales would have fewer problems now if that had not been neglected. It is my view, and the Secretary of State certainly agrees, that it is time to look at the funding formula for Wales, and it is my view that one could do this even with the constraints of the agreement that Scotland will retain its current funding. One can look at Wales on a unilateral basis.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, asked me to clarify the Prime Minister’s statement. He simply restated the oft-stated government position on funding in Wales, which is that because the problem of the deficit is our priority, no additional funding can be provided within this Government. That is in no way at odds with the Secretary of State saying that the long-term funding position of Wales needs to be looked at. There is an immediate situation and a long-term situation. The noble Baroness also asked for clarification on the impact of having income tax powers on the block grant and so on and referred to the index deduction method. The purpose of the index deduction method was to protect Wales from big swings in the economy as a whole and the sort of big swings that are due to UK government policy. However, I point out yet again that the Welsh Government have acknowledged that funding is fair at this point, within the region of fairness. Given that the Welsh Government acknowledged that we were in that sort of territory two years ago, it would be a good idea to go for a referendum on income tax powers as soon as possible to give the Welsh Government the maximum opportunities to use the taxation system to increase prosperity in Wales.

I shall very briefly look at the technical details of the amendments. Amendment 56 would require the Secretary of State to lay an independent report on options to replace the Barnett formula. Amendments 59 and 60 would seek to make the devolution of an element of income tax conditional on dealing with the funding formula. They specifically say that income tax can devolve only when the Welsh Government confirm that they are content with how funds are allocated. The progress that this Government have made on working towards fair funding, with the significant exchange of letters in 2012 between the Ministers in the two Governments, can be built on. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, for drawing my attention to these new sections, in particular new Sections 116G and 116H. I spend around 140 days of the year here, about 60 days in my family home in Scotland and the rest of the time in Wales. On these formulae, I am not liable to pay income tax in Wales, certainly not in Scotland, and possibly not in England, if we have similar provisions. Thank you very much. Devolve away.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I understand that this new chapter is not the easiest read. In fact, I found it quite good for getting to sleep on one occasion. However, it is important to recognise that this is a complex issue and has a direct relationship with things such as tax law, and when you get an indirect relationship with tax law. When you get into these things, the more you think about it, the more exceptions that occur to you to be considered.

The clauses in this Bill are very closely based on those in the Scotland Act and have been subject to the whole scrutiny process in that respect. I suggest that noble Lords think about how to deal with somebody who is a lorry driver or a shift worker. Every time you set a test, you can think of exceptions. Before the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, thinks that being a Scottish parliamentarian and a Welsh parliamentarian in the same year is unusual, may I remind him that I call this the “Keith Raffan clause”? Keith Raffan was an MP in north Wales and then almost immediately an MSP in Scotland. He moved from Wales to Scotland.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I believe that the territorials and special police are not disqualified.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I have been very interested in the debate on these amendments. Amendment 13 in the name of my noble friend Lord German would reduce to six the number of candidates on the regional list at an Assembly election and ensure that the names appeared on the ballot paper. The Government of Wales Act 2006 provides that a political party may put up no more than 12 candidates. As my noble friend explained, until the 2011 Assembly election the names of all regional candidates appeared. However, in its report on the 2007 Assembly election, the Electoral Commission noted that returning officers were becoming increasingly concerned with the size of ballot papers due to having to list up to 12 candidates. As a result, no names of regional candidates were displayed in 2011.

I sympathise with the noble Lord’s concerns, which were widely shared across parties at the time. Because of this, following the election, the Electoral Commission committed to consulting on the issue of including names on regional ballot papers once more with a view to providing a recommendation to the Secretary of State for Wales. This consultation is currently under way and is due to report before the end of the year. I concur with my noble friend that it is perhaps surprising that it has slipped so late in this electoral cycle. Once the commission has reported, however, the Wales Office will, together with the Welsh Government, political parties and electoral administrators in Wales, consider the recommendations for inclusion in the conduct order for the next Assembly elections in 2016. That order will, of course, be subject to the approval of both Houses of Parliament.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

Thank you, my Lords, for that interesting debate. I have grasped the picture. There is a cross-party and no-party agreement here today. Noble Lords want the Assembly to have more Members but also have very different views on how many more Members there should be, how that process of enlargement should happen and how they should be elected.

I welcome again the conversion of the Labour Party to the cause of having more Members. If we go back to the days—10 years ago—when the noble Lord, Lord Richard, suggested having 80 Members, that was not acceptable to the Labour Government then, so I am delighted that we are now reaching agreement on this. However, I have to point out that, although we as politicians here think that what is needed is more Members for the Assembly, I fear that if we asked the general public they would not produce the same answer. Asking for more politicians is not going to be an easy thing, particularly when the public view of politics and politicians is at a pretty low ebb across all parties.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The deal in Scotland was that it had primary legislative powers and therefore the number of Members was reduced from 72 to 59. The people of Wales have spoken. They have had a referendum in which they have provided that Wales should have primary legislative powers and those have been given. Why should the people of Wales object to a reduction in numbers of MPs and an increase in numbers of Members of the Assembly?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes an excellent point and anticipates part of my speech. There is an issue of ensuring that if the Assembly is to have more Members, and that is to have broad public support, it needs to be done either when there is a reduction in the number of Welsh MPs, as was referred to earlier, or there is a reorganisation of local government in Wales, when I anticipate that there would be a reduction in the number of councillors.

In the mean time, there is an important public debate to be had and an argument to be made by civil society. I am aware that a large number of organisations within civil society in Wales share the views that noble Lords have expressed today. There is an engagement with politics that these things should be done by civil society in order to ensure that any arguments on them are put forward with force and relevance for the people of Wales.

I am grateful to the noble Lords whose amendments have enabled this debate. Amendments 6, 9 and 11, and Amendment 14 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, have formed a useful group and theme. Amendments 6 and 9 require the Secretary of State to introduce a Bill to increase the size of the Assembly to at least 80 Members—in the case of Amendment 6, from 2016. Amendment 9 provides that responsibility for deciding the number of Assembly Members should be devolved to the Assembly. Any subsequent change to the number of Members must be approved by a two-thirds majority.

We recognise in government the legitimate concerns about whether the Assembly has sufficient numbers to provide Ministers and the scrutiny that government through the committee system in the Assembly requires. This has been discussed since at least the time of the Richard commission and I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Richard, on this issue. More recently, the Silk commission recommended in its second report increasing the number of Assembly Members, although it did not go into the detail of suggesting a number.

Wales: Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Lord Thomas of Gresford and Baroness Randerson

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords, it is all very well saying that you are going to vote yes for a referendum. Would my noble friend the Minister be good enough to say who is going to frame the question which is to be put to the Welsh people? It has been noticeable that the First Minister, Mr Carwyn Jones, has not been overanxious to commit himself to timing for a referendum. Can we take it that the legislation will ensure that a referendum will be held and will not be deferred until some replacement for the Barnett formula has been found? In the 13 years of the previous Labour Government, they were unable to do that, despite all the pleas that were put to them at that time. Will my noble friend confirm that this referendum will go ahead with a proper question, within a reasonable time and with the Welsh Assembly having the power to determine precisely when?

[Baroness Randerson]

I thank my noble friend for raising two new issues, the first relating to the question for the referendum. The Government’s response on this has laid great emphasis on how well we believe arrangements worked for the previous referendum on full legislative powers. In that case, the matter was very much in the hands of the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly in consultation with the UK Government. However, there was a very important role for the Electoral Commission, whose advice was taken and was pivotal. I hope that the Welsh Government will lead the call for a referendum and that the situation in Wales will enable them to lead that call relatively soon. It is important that the Welsh Government feel that they are in a position strongly to call for a referendum, because the UK Government believe that the joint statement of October 2012 meant that there was agreement between the two Governments on the way in which future funding for Wales would be dealt with.