Merchant Shipping (Homosexual Conduct) Bill

Debate between Lord Swinfen and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 6th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Scott for bringing forth this Bill on this important issue—the contributions during this short debate have illustrated that poignantly. My noble friend set out in detail why it is right that we should progress. I am grateful also to my noble friend Lord Black and the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Rosser, for their contributions.

Although the Bill has limited practical effects, as all noble Lords have acknowledged, and does not change the rights and responsibilities of any person today, it has deeply symbolic importance. As was said by my ministerial colleague on Second Reading in the other place,

“the laws that we pass in this place and that form our statute book represent”—

in a very real sense—

“the established morals and values of our country. It is right therefore that when the statute book contains wording that is inconsistent with those values we should change that wording. For that reason, the Government are happy to state now, formally, that we support this measure”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/1/17; col. 1236.]

Noble Lords will also understand that when the Government decide to support a Private Member’s Bill, they undertake an analysis of whether it is compatible with the rights enshrined in the Human Rights Act. I am happy to confirm for the record that, in my view, the provisions of this Bill are totally compatible with those rights.

My noble friend Lady Scott has spelled out the proceedings that took the Bill out of the other place and bring it before us today. I do not intend to detain the House further in that respect. However, it is interesting to note in respect of the Wiltshire connection that the Bill was taken through the other place by my honourable friend John Glen, who is the MP for Salisbury, and that it was Viscount Cranborne—now the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury—who took the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act through this House in 1994. I am glad to see the continuing interest of the good people of Salisbury in this issue.

I want to take a few minutes to explain briefly the history behind the provisions that the Bill seeks to remove. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 was a significant milestone in the development of LGBT rights in the United Kingdom. The Act is the last UK Act to have a whole part entitled simply, “Homosexuality”. As the noble Lord recounted earlier, it was responsible for reducing the age of homosexual consent from 21 to 18. It also removed some of the last remaining criminal liability for acts of homosexual sex. Sex between adults of the same sex was generally decriminalised by Section 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 1967, but that Act maintained criminal liability for homosexual sex that was contrary to military discipline or occurred on board a merchant ship. That liability was removed in the 1994 Act by Section 146(1), (2) and (3), for England, Wales and Scotland, and by Section 147(1) and (2) for Northern Ireland. However, the sections that we are dealing with today, Sections 146(4) and 147(3), were added during the passage of the Bill following amendments made by a Member of your Lordships’ House—a point already acknowledged by noble Lords.

Of course, time has moved on. We heard a poignant history of how this House, the other House and society have moved on. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, recounted the history of how the rights of individuals have increasingly been protected. It is right that we move forward in line with history and in line with society today.

As I mentioned earlier, the sections in question are of no current effect. Moreover, any attempt to discharge a member of the UK Merchant Navy from their employment on the basis of their sexuality would now be unlawful by reason of equality legislation. My noble friend Lord Black mentioned Alan Turing. I remember from this very Dispatch Box responding to the Private Member’s Bill in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, who is not in his place. I recognise his efforts in that respect as we move forward in the right vein. Today, we shall do so again.

Sections have become shorter as time has gone on. Sections 146(4) and 147(3) of the Act have been progressively repealed, most recently by the Armed Forces Act 2016, which removed all references to Armed Forces. The Government could not do anything about provisions relating to the Merchant Navy in 2016 because, despite the name, the Merchant Navy is not part of the Armed Forces. Such an amendment could not be made out of scope. Nevertheless, the Government committed that they would address this point as soon as possible. At this juncture, I can only congratulate my noble friend on beating the Government to it.

We have reached a stage where the provisions in the 1994 Act refer only to the Merchant Navy and they are in any event defunct. Despite that, the policy behind the current statutory wording is unambiguous. It amounts to a statement that homosexual conduct per se is incompatible with employment on merchant vessels. Getting rid of that statement is a wholly laudable aim and I applaud my noble friend and all noble Lords here for supporting it today. It may be true that this measure is symbolic, but as my noble friend Lady Scott has made clear, there are very good reasons to support symbolic measures, including because they give clarity and tidy up the statute book, but also because, as I said at the start of my speech, the laws that are in force in the United Kingdom in 2017 should reflect the values of our great country in 2017. The Bill will do exactly that, and for that reason I hope that it can make rapid progress today and receive the support that it truly deserves.

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

I quite understand that the Bill will apply to British ships in British waters and elsewhere in the world, but what is the position with foreign-flagged ships that happen to be in British waters when the homosexual act takes place? Their foreign laws may not apply in the same way that ours do.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I acknowledge my noble friend’s point. Of course, ships are reflective of the flag under which they are registered. In terms of specifics and in terms of territories, when they are in Britain they should reflect the laws of our land, especially laws relating to British territorial waters and British land. I will write to my noble friend on the issue and share that with all noble Lords.

Southern Rail: Disabled Passengers

Debate between Lord Swinfen and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 20th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That may well be the view of that official. I do not know. I shall certainly look into that quote. Let me assure the House that the resolution of this problem requires everyone, all stakeholders—the company, the Government and the unions—to come together to resolve this issue. This has gone on for far too long. Such statements do not help in providing a solution to this long-running problem.

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

My Lords, conductors normally get out of the train to make certain it is safe to close the doors before the train goes on. Will drivers be getting out of the train to perform that task?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I repeat to my noble friend what I have already said: the new driver-only operated trains do not mean that there will be staff redundancies. Those conductors will now become train supervisors and will continue to have a role not only in ensuring that passengers leave and embark on the train safely but in ensuring passenger safety across the whole train.

Border Force Budget 2016-17

Debate between Lord Swinfen and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister made clear when he announced the EU referendum that there would be a clear government position. There is, which is the belief that I know is shared by many across your Lordships’ House that the United Kingdom’s place is within the European Union. On the question of entry by EU nationals, while there are border controls in place in the United Kingdom, part of our agreement with the European Union is to ensure that, while EU nationals visit and work in this country, they, like all citizens, including United Kingdom citizens returning from abroad, go through diligent checks at passport control to ensure that we protect our borders from criminals and terrorists who may seek to permeate those borders.

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, it is this side I think—the noble Lord is not our side. Will the Minister tell us how many officers there are in the Border Force, how many will it fall to next year, and how that compares with the recommendation by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, in the report commissioned by David Cameron a few years ago that there should be 30,000 officers?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I will not go into specific numbers of officers, but as I have already said and say again to the noble Lord, through the creation of the Border Force we have ensured greater flexibility of all Border Force staff to ensure that, wherever the shortages are—as we found last summer when there were challenges from the situation in Calais—the challenges and needs are met by ensuring that there are sufficient staff in whatever port, be it maritime or airports.

[Lord Swinfen]

My Lords, the noble Lord has told us what is—or, rather, what is not—being done at sea to protect our borders. What is being done on land to intercept illegal entry via our beaches and unmanned airfields in various places in the country?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I remind my noble friend that, as I have already said, the Border Force works very closely with all agencies, including the police and the National Crime Agency. This ensures that we have a robust approach, with joined-up thinking and sharing of intelligence. Of course, we work with our European partners to ensure that, where there are any concerns on access and illegal entry to the United Kingdom, be it by water or air, we meet that challenge robustly. The message must be clear that our borders are robust: we will prevent those who seek to enter illegally, including those who seek to spread terror in this country or elsewhere in Europe. Together, through sharing of intelligence, we are facing that challenge head-on.

Landlord and Tenant Acts

Debate between Lord Swinfen and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 29th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness is of course correct. We are looking to do that and to help leaseholders to feel more secure. On the right to be consulted about legal and service charges, to extend a lease or buy the freehold, to take over management—subject to certain criteria—or seek an appointment from a tribunal and protection for service charges so that moneys are protected from creditors, we are working with practitioners in the field to ensure that such information is communicated effectively. We have talked about good landlords and bad landlords. It is important that good practice and good landlord practice is shared, and we encourage landlords to share information on the rights of leaseholders with their own leaseholders.

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

Many tenants have to pay a substantial annual maintenance charge. I understand that in many instances no maintenance is actually carried out. Will the Government make sure that landlords carry out proper accounting for the tenants?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

If there is a specific case, I have not seen it. If my noble friend has the details, perhaps he will share them with me. The important thing here—and I have already alluded to this— is that if any contracts are entered into that are 12 months or greater and which include maintenance fees, or any changes are brought about to those, landlords are not just encouraged but required to share that information with their leaseholders.