Register of Arms Brokers Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Swinfen and Baroness Jolly

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 18th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister and her officials for a really useful meeting last week. Amendments 1 and 2 are technical and would rectify shortcomings in the original Bill debated at Second Reading, as highlighted by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report of 25 October this year.

With the leave of the Committee, I should like to outline briefly the purpose of the Bill. It is a small Bill to meet an obvious need. Its purpose is to require British arms brokers to register before they can trade. It brings arms brokers into line with those of other countries, such as the US—a country not recognised as being in favour of unnecessary regulation. Here, I should point out that a strong regulatory regime is already in place to ensure that licences are granted to export appropriate goods to states which we trust to act responsibly with the arms that are purchased.

At Second Reading the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby summed up the issues really well. He said that the Bill,

“builds upon existing legislation about licensing and export control, so we have a set of criteria and an assessment process in place so that all companies involved are scrutinised and licensed. We are doing the work that would provide the register. So the principle of identifying and monitoring arms brokers is established.

Secondly, there has been a recommendation from the House of Commons Committees on Arms Export Controls that the Government establish a register of UK arms brokers. So besides have a principle of identifying and licensing brokers, even in our own parliamentary system there has been some expert scrutiny of that principle and a recommendation that it is taken forward to a formal system of registration”.

Finally, I refer to the right reverend Prelate’s recent experience of being involved in the crafting and implementation of the Modern Slavery Act. He said:

“In the language of that world, which is analogous, there is the issue of … supply-chain transparency: how people trade and make it transparent for the benefit of all concerned, pushing back against temptations towards corruption”.—[Official Report, 10/6/16; col. 958-59.]

As I said, these are two technical amendments, which were prompted by the DPRRC. I beg to move.

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for speaking, as I did not have the opportunity to take part at Second Reading.

I am a little puzzled by the meaning of new Section 4A(2) proposed in Clause 1. As I read it, it would mean that members of the Ministry of Defence, civil servants, members of the Armed Forces and the Treasury and various Ministers,

“involved in the financing, transportation, freight forwarding, or taking of any other action that facilitates the manufacture, export, or import of military equipment or military technology”,

should be registered. I find that odd. It is quite obvious that members of the Armed Forces and civil servants in the Ministry of Defence are involved in the design, improvement and manufacture of weapons to be used by our Armed Forces, but I do not really understand why they should be registered as arms brokers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jolly]

Perhaps I can better help the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, by explaining that the issue he raised comes under the second group of amendments. The amendments in the first group are merely technical to determine how such legislation could take effect.

[Lord Swinfen]

I am quite happy for the noble Baroness to answer my query when we come to the second group. I shall wait patiently to hear what she has to say.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jolly]

The point I thought the noble Lord was making was to do with the breadth of the measure having to cover Secretaries of State, members of the Cabinet and British arms manufacturers who deal perfectly legitimately and regularly overseas. Do I understand the noble Lord aright?

[Lord Swinfen]

The noble Baroness is moving in the right direction, but as I read her Bill it would cover the Ministry of Defence, civil servants working for that ministry, members of the Armed Forces, the Treasury, Ministers in the Treasury and anyone involved in the manufacture and supply of arms for our own forces. I am sure that that is not her actual intention, and I am not a lawyer although I am descended from lawyers, but that is my reading of her Bill. It may be that she needs to look at this point before the Report stage.

[Baroness Jolly]

I thank the noble Lord for that clarification. I am not a lawyer either and neither am I descended from lawyers, but I will most certainly take advice from them and ensure that, should the Bill reach the Report stage, I table any necessary amendments to exclude those particular groups. The aim of the Bill is to catch arms brokers who for the most part operate in small or single-individual companies hiding behind brass plates. Recently there have been several instances of brokers trading illegally. They have been charged and served their time, but because there is no registration, they can come straight back and trade again. That is the purpose of the Bill and so that is what the fit and proper person provision is for.

[Lord Swinfen]

I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for saying that she will have a look at this point, and I look forward to hearing what she decides on it at a later stage.