Civil Service: Permanent Secretaries

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, we have time. I think it is probably my noble friend Lord Tyler first and then the Labour Party.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, my noble friend has touched on the relationship of Ministers to Parliament. I wonder if he would just reinforce and reiterate the point that all Permanent Secretaries are answerable and accountable to Parliament for the whole of their departments, including of course the performance of the head and leadership of that department. Has he noted the suggestion that Secretaries of State might be subjected to confirmatory hearings by departmental Select Committees? Would he confirm that it is the Government’s view that, in this relationship, it is the Secretary of State to the department that is responsible to Parliament? So would it not be more appropriate for the Secretary of State on appointment to be subjected to a confirmatory hearing?

House of Lords: Peers

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Thursday 8th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have already set up a Leader’s Group to look at retirement issues, chaired by my noble friend Lord Hunt. Its conclusions deserve rereading and I am more than happy to re-examine them to see whether any changes could be brought forward given the position that the Government are now in; namely, that there will be no further legislation for this House in this Parliament.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that banishing those who do not attend would be pointless and equally that persuading non-attenders to come regularly would be counterproductive? Has my noble friend seen the excellent note from the Clerks on this issue which records the fact that in 1820 the House ordered that Peers be fined up to £100 for each day’s absence? At today’s money, would not that help deal with the deficit?

[Lord Strathclyde]

It certainly would, my Lords. I have not had the luxury of reading the Clerks’ paper but I very much look forward to doing so.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I reiterate a view that I have long held and which the Government also hold: the Lords spiritual play a valuable and important role in the House and make an important contribution. The right reverend Prelate wonders about the numbers. I think it was the Joint Committee that suggested a reduction to 12 Bishops. The proposal in the Bill is that there should be five named Bishops and Archbishops, and then seven others chosen by the Church of England.

On two key questions of self-restraint and how this can be achieved, of course nothing can be guaranteed. It depends on the House evolving, and its new relationship with the second Chamber, which either will or will not change. It will be up to the new House, and the House of Commons, to decide how best to govern itself.

On the second question the right reverend Prelate raises, he is right to point out that we have not accepted that there should be an explicit condition on the statutory Appointments Commission to put in Peers of other faiths and make sure they are represented. There is no such view on the current Appointments Commission, yet it works extremely well. Other faiths have been introduced into the House, and I hope that that will continue.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords—

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Dholakia is not able to be here, and I have been asked to respond. I am very sorry if I am holding up the noble Lord, Lord Richard, because I am looking forward very much to his response. He and other members of the committee will agree that the Government have in the main responded to our report.

Has my noble friend the Leader noted very intriguing variations in consistency on this issue? He will have noted, I think, that David Cameron and George Osborne voted for the 80/20 hybrid House as long ago as February 2003, as indeed I did. However, a great many others seem to have changed their minds since. I particularly welcome—and I think that other members of the Joint Committee will join me in this—the fact that the Government have taken such trouble with a very robust and comprehensive analysis of the cost projections to lay to rest the otherwise very speculative scaremongering expenditure estimates that were given to us previously. That is very helpful. That also responds to the report recommendations.

May I ask my noble friend the Leader to expand in due course, not necessarily now, on the true comparison between the Government’s proposals in this very useful document on the projection of cost and what would otherwise happen if the Government’s proposals did not go through? If the size of the House continued to expand, the cost of this House would of course also increase dramatically.

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords, we most certainly can. My noble friend is entirely correct. There has been a very robust analysis of the cost, including an examination of what the cost might have been if no reform had taken place—it would increase substantially. I said in reply to the Leader of the Opposition that the net cost in the first year after transition would be an extra £13.6 million per year, and I stand by that amount. I am very happy to write to my noble friend about how the costs have been robustly examined. I think the House will find that when it looks at the Explanatory Memorandum and the reply to the Joint Committee of both Houses, it will see very clearly how those costs have been reached and how they are substantially different from the ones proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Thursday 21st June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I have every confidence that the robust nature of the British constitution would be able to bear well an elected second Chamber and it would have no impact whatever on the constitutional monarchy.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, returning to the original Question, can my noble friend assure the House that when an estimate is prepared in the light of the Government’s Bill in a few weeks’ time, we will have a true comparison of the future likely costs of not reforming the House along the lines of the Government’s Bill?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I do not think that I can go quite as far as my noble friend wants. Yes, I believe that there will be a comprehensive breakdown of the costs of a reformed Chamber. As for the costs of the future of this House, that is more difficult to see, but the House needs to be aware that the total costs of this House are currently around £90 million a year, forecast to rise to £103 million in 2012-13.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks as though his own party did not stand on a manifesto of reform of your Lordships’ House, which it did.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, will my noble friend take due account of the very exaggerated estimates of the potential cost, which do not take into account the fact that the allowances of current Members of the House are untaxed while, presumably, a salaried Member of the new House would be taxed? Has my noble friend taken note of the fact that Mr Mark Harper, the Minister responsible for the Bill, has indicated to the Joint Committee in open session that at present a Member of this House based in London can take home more than an MP?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I agree with my noble friend on the question of taxation, and indeed with my honourable friend Mark Harper, the Minister in the House of Commons. However, I am not sure that that is a very useful comparison. After all, it would require a Peer living in London to turn up every single day, and one of the strengths of this House is that it is part-time and people choose to come when they feel that they have something of value to contribute.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, both.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, unless it is the intention to amend the Parliament Acts before any change is made to the composition of this House, it would be preferable to review the Parliament Acts and, indeed, the conventions when that takes place, which was, of course, what was recommended by the Cunningham committee? Does he also accept that once a convention is codified it ceases to be a convention, as indeed that committee also recommended?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree with both points that my noble friend makes. However, the fact is that if we end up with a wholly elected House or a partially elected House, and if the relationship between the two Houses becomes strained, it is up to parliamentarians in both Houses to find the best way of sorting that out.

Hereditary Peers

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Thursday 20th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

No, My Lords, I did not say there was no urgency in this particular matter; but in the matter of hereditary Peers, which is entirely different. We accept that there is an opportunity here and, as the previous question demonstrated, any amendment to the line of succession involves consulting those member states of the Commonwealth in which the Queen is head of state under the Statute of Westminster. There would also need to be legislation. Next week, there is a meeting of the Commonwealth Heads of Government and in the margins of that we hope to make progress on this issue.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, in following up the question of the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, and while undertaking further research, would my noble friend examine whether, if we elect the Monarch, we do so under a proportional system?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, without having to consult my colleagues, I am pretty clear that that would not be the case.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I have reminded the House of this before: at the last election all three main parties had in their manifestos a pledge to reform the House and people were very happy to vote for that. As for political consensus, we will see to the work of the Joint Committee when it reports next year.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, among the representations he has been examining, has my noble friend seen the report published on Monday entitled The End of the Peer Show?, in which Mr Hilary Benn has committed the Labour Party to a continuing campaign based on its manifesto commitment for a wholly elected House of Lords? Is my noble friend aware of any successful parliamentary candidate who arrived in the other place committed to voting against his party’s manifesto?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, no, I am not. I have not read Mr Benn’s no doubt splendid article, but given that the Recess starts later on today, perhaps it should be required reading for all noble Lords.

Parliament Act 1911: Centenary

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the Government’s position is that we have no current plans to mark the centenary of the Parliament Act. In answer to the Question from my noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno, I wondered whether it was appropriate for this House to celebrate the passing of the Act when it removed so much power from us, which might well have been used exceptionally wisely over the succeeding 100 years.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, after their rip-roaring performances in last week’s debate, would it not be appropriate to commission a production of Gilbert and Sullivan’s “Iolanthe”, with starring performances from my noble friend Lord McNally and the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd?

Leader’s Group on Working Practices

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

To ask the Leader of the House when he expects to respond to the recommendations of the Leader’s Group on Working Practices.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I will be leading a debate on the report prepared by the Leader’s Group and chaired by my noble friend Lord Goodlad later this month, following which I plan to invite the relevant committees of the House to take forward specific recommendations.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I am sure that many Members of the House will welcome that positive response from my noble friend, but can he assure us that there will be an opportunity for the House as a whole to debate and decide some of these matters, some of which are not only timely but very urgent? The work that has been done by this group is, I think, broadly welcomed across the House—it has done a very good job—but some of it is, as I say, very urgent. Notably, there is the question of the role of the Lord Speaker, which is a matter that I hope will be determined by the House as a whole before the new Lord Speaker is elected. Can my noble friend give us an assurance that there will be a speedy timetable for discussion and decision on these matters?

[Lord Strathclyde]

Yes, my Lords. Of course, the final decisions on these matters will be entirely in the hands of the House, which is entirely appropriate. In particular, I confirm to my noble friend that there is no reason why decisions cannot be taken immensely speedily after the debate and when we have taken the views of the House into account and sent them to the respective committees.

As for the role of the Lord Speaker, the Leader’s Group concluded that successive Leaders of the House had acted with complete impartiality in their role of advising the House on matters of procedure and order, including at Question Time. None the less, I am conscious that some in the House wish to see a far greater role for the Chair—notably at Question Time—and that the Leader’s Group has made proposals in this area, to which I intend to give prompt and serious consideration once Members have had the opportunity to have their say.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that there are many features of the current White Paper that simply repeat the features of the White Paper produced by Mr Jack Straw in the last Government? Can he also reassure the House that he has been told by the Official Opposition that they intend to conduct pre-legislative scrutiny with all the constructive contributions that we in this House take such pride in? Would it not be ridiculous if Members on the other side—or indeed any side of this House—attempted to obstruct or filibuster when at the same time they take such pride in saying that the other House should retain primacy? Can we be assured that the Government have been given an indication that they are all signed up to using this exercise, in the best traditions of this House, to undertake proper, constructive pre-legislative scrutiny of these proposals?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House will have heard my noble friend. I can confirm that it is my understanding that not only the Opposition but also the Cross Benches and everybody else who wishes to play a part in the Joint Committee will wish to do so most constructively to try to reach a good solution that would suit not just this House or the other place, but also the nation.

Parliament: Elected House of Lords

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Monday 16th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it is always useful and helpful to have some advice from the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, who was a Member of the Government who published several White Papers on this subject in their period in office. We hope to publish only one.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, following the question of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, did my noble friend see the statement by Mr Hilary Benn last week that the Labour Party is now committed to a 100 per cent elected House and that nothing less will do? Does he agree that the balance of responsibility and power between the two Houses will inevitably be affected by the number of people elected to this House and does he therefore think that the primacy of the Commons should be reflected in the draft Bill by at least keeping in the option of 80 per cent elected?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a good point. Different Members of either House will feel differently about the role of primacy of the House of Commons depending on what proportion of this House were to be elected. I noted too, as he did, that the shadow Leader of the House of Commons, Mr Hilary Benn, said that the Labour Party was now entirely in favour of a 100 per cent elected House.

House of Lords: Life Peerages

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, neither is the case. While there is an appointed House, it is always open to the Prime Minister to appoint new Members to it on a cross-party basis and the noble Lord will have seen the coalition agreement on that. However, if Parliament passes a Bill for an elected House, elections would take place.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, will my noble friend acknowledge that since 1997, when a Government, of whom the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was a distinguished Member, were elected with a clear commitment to reform your Lordships’ House to include elected Members and, by implication, to end the life peerage, all of us who have been appointed know that we are term Peers in practical terms? Will he further acknowledge that the big difference since May of last year is that instead of just talking about this for 13 years we have a Government who are committed to action?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. I do not believe that any new Member of this House, before accepting this great honour and, indeed, a job, has not considered what might happen if a reform Bill is finally published.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

In a series of votes in the House of Commons, Members of the other place united behind this system and decided to put it forward to this House.

[Lord Tyler]

Can my noble friend tell the House whether the Government took cognisance of the fact that the previous Government, having obviously gone through a very similar thought process, decided on precisely this form of AV for the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act and then repeated the proposal in the general election?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

As the noble Lord is aware, it was a Conservative Member of Parliament, Mr Christopher Chope, who moved what was in effect the supplementary vote amendment in the House of Commons. He had support from Members on his own Benches, but it is a pity that he did not drive them into the Division Lobbies.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Strathclyde and Lord Tyler

Monday 15th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, of course I do not say that; nor do I think my remarks were ill-timed or misjudged. I was going to precisely make the case that Mr Goudie QC said that it was arguable that the Bill may be hybrid. Did anyone in the House hear a lawyer say that a case like this was not arguable? And when did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, fight shy of arguing it?

As is well known and understood, I am not a Silk like the noble and learned Lord or his friend Mr Goudie, but I have spent enough time in the countryside to know a sow’s ear when I see it—and I see it in this Motion. On what do I rest my case? Your Lordships have the benefit of the crisp opinion of the Clerks of your Lordships’ House, who have confirmed the view—a view they had taken even before the Bill was introduced—that this Bill is not prima facie hybrid. Indeed, in the opinion of the Clerk of Public and Private Bills, the Bill, “cannot be hybrid”. Had it been, neither the Clerks of this House nor of the other place, having examined it for that specific purpose, would have let it pass. That letter is in the Library.

Furthermore, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern wrote in a letter copied to me, the Leader of the Opposition and the Convenor of the Crossbench Peers:

“A hybrid Bill is a public Bill which affects a particular private interest in a manner different from the private interests of other persons or bodies of the same category”.

On that, I am sure that we all agree. He went on to write this short line:

“I can see no ground on which it could be argued that this is a hybrid Bill”.

So what are the facts of the matter? No one’s right to vote is affected. No one’s right to vote is withdrawn. No one’s right to representation is diminished. All that the Bill seeks to do is to ensure that constituency sizes are more equal and that each voter’s voice is more equal. Underneath all the legal argumentation, what shines out from the noble and learned Lord is that equalising constituency sizes upsets the Labour Party. We all know that Labour has long benefited from this system. No one talked about hybridity then and we all know why, don’t we? It seems that the Labour Party is upset that those unique communities in the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland are protected under this Bill.

[Lord Tyler]

Can my noble friend confirm that, whenever any legislation has referred to the Orkney and Shetland constituency, although that constituency has never been considered to be part of the United Kingdom as a conventional constituency, the legislation has never been treated as hybrid?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, not only is my noble friend, like my noble friend Lord Rennard, right, but this relates to a Bill on which the former Lord Chancellor advised. The Scotland Act 1998—legislation of a Labour Government—made provision for Orkney and Shetland each to be a separate constituency in the Scottish Parliament and not to be part of any future Boundary Commission review. The noble and learned Lord raised no question of hybridity then. In addition, the same legislation—