House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Stewartby Excerpts

Friday 3rd December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stewartby]

My Lords, at this stage in the debate I do not want to go back over all the issues that have been discussed in what has been an exceptionally interesting debate so far, but I support the thanks that have been addressed to my noble friend Lord Steel for his tenacity and skill at keeping this subject before us and bringing forth, year after year—there seems to be an annual rhythm to these Bills—new aspects that need to be addressed.

As the great-grandson of one of the proposed Liberal Peers in Asquith’s list 100 years ago, I have always taken a great interest in constitutional change. Throughout that time, the position has been that it is so difficult that you should not really attempt it unless you cannot do anything else. Nothing I have heard this afternoon persuades me to think otherwise. I will therefore pick on a few points that have struck me, as the debate has proceeded, as needing a bit more emphasis.

First, legitimacy does not depend on election. It is thought by many to do so, but that is a fundamental misunderstanding, particularly when you have a fully appointed judiciary. To say for this one purpose that the only sort of validity you can have is electoral seems not only wrong, but to have unfortunate consequences. It makes people look at the future of the House of Lords as if it mattered not what the role of the House should be but rather what the nature of its Members should be. That is starting at the wrong end of the issue. We need to tackle this head on. People tend to imply that election is a magic democratic potion, but it is very different. Incidentally, if elected and unelected Houses are compared, why is the unelected House of Lords held in greater respect than the elected House of Commons? That is obviously an opinion, but one will find it frequently expressed.

There have been a number of references in the debate to the lack of understanding outside this place about what it actually does. One cannot point to a better illustration of that than remarks sometimes made by Members of another place who seem to think that reaction against the idea of an elected House of Lords is driven by personal concerns. That is not at all the impression I have got when discussing this subject over a longish time with many other colleagues. I do not believe that this House would object to anything which its Members felt was better than the present situation. That ought to be the necessary starting point. We have not got there yet, and there is a lack of understanding between the Houses on that issue.

There seems to be an increasing awareness in another place of the danger of creating a potential for endless squabbling between the Houses if they both have this so-called electoral legitimacy. There is no doubt that anyone elected to a second Chamber would want to demonstrate that it had not only good ideas, policies and so on, but that it could challenge the House of Commons as and when it thought fit. The present system will undoubtedly be changed in some way; we just do not know how. However, that is an important matter for individual Members of another place. They do not yet seem fully to have got behind it.

Finally, there is the question of why so many new peerages have been created, with more to come. This past week, several colleagues may have found themselves unable to get into the Chamber on a Division because of the press of numbers, despite an eight-minute timescale. That figure was set when Peers were much less numerous. Now Peers have to queue in the Lobby outside because they cannot get into the House to vote, which is a practical illustration of the sort of problems that are developing over this huge number of new arrivals.

I hope this debate will not have to be repeated in a year’s time but if it is, I feel confident that the noble Lord, Lord Steel, will take it forward in the way that he has done so successfully recently. We thank him for that.