Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 (Powers of Seizure) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Bradshaw

Thursday 15th March 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his full introduction to this order. Again, we have no significant concerns about the order itself because it is an appropriate way forward. Indeed, it seems to be needed, based on the description we have had.

As the Minister has said, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee reported on the order in order to draw it to the attention of the House on the grounds of a policy likely to be of interest. The committee’s main concern seems to be about the rather extended time taken to go from the initial idea booted around in the consultation paper in December 2015 to the final decision to move forward on a part of what was consulted on—only a part—as late as earlier this year. The Minister said that the issues raised will be taken back with everything else, but he did not give us an explanation about that issue. The letter from the department that covered it is also rather vague. It is mainly to do with the fact that internal government processes got in the way of the smooth running of the overall proposal and that the decision was taken quite late simply to go ahead with these REMIT proposals. More information about that would be of interest.

My concern is slightly different. The consultation that was carried out was broader than the REMIT, but the Explanatory Memorandum focuses on those issues. I take it that the references in Article 8 of the Explanatory Memorandum are around that. It says in paragraph (8.2):

“Some energy companies expressed support for the initially proposed “seize and sift” powers, but the majority of companies and representative groups”—


so it is not quite as the noble Lord mentioned—

“argued that these were disproportionate, unnecessary or gave Ofgem too much leeway on which information to remove”.

In other words, they were about the powers. It seems to me that the majority of companies did not agree with the proposal. They felt that the existing powers would be sufficient and that seeing papers on sight, sifting through them there and taking information away in that form would be sufficient for their processes. In paragraph (8.3) however, the department’s response states:

“Having taken account of the consultation responses, BEIS considers that the aim of the policy … justifies the additional burdens identified by industry”.


They were complaining not about the burdens, but the powers. The Explanatory Memorandum is completely silent on whether these powers are appropriate. It seems that the Government have decided to ignore the consultation and go ahead. Will the Minister comment on that? He is not wrong in the sense that the ends may justify the means, but the process would have left a number of companies a bit bruised, given the very short time available and the lack of any individual consultation. They would be entitled to feel that they have not been taken account of properly.

Finally, I have to come back to the matter of the implementation date. This is a new group of civil servants and I can expand on my worries. Other noble Lords will realise that I have raised this matter before. This order may be cited from, and comes into force on, the “twenty-first day after the day on which it is made”. It will have a considerable impact on a small number of companies operating in the electricity and gas field. It is therefore not inappropriate to think that the order should start from the common commencement date: 6 April. If you do the maths, 21 days takes you just beyond 6 April. It would be not inappropriate if the Minister decided to suggest, even with the regulation in this form, that 6 April would have been a better date, and I appeal to his better judgment to make the necessary changes if he can.

[Lord Bradshaw]

In considering this order we should consider the enormous public dissatisfaction with some of the regulated industries that we have seen for a long time. I think I am correct that the regulators have often been caught out saying that prices should be allowed to rise by a certain amount, and immediately after the announcement, companies’ share prices have risen. To me, this means that the regulator has misjudged the situation. Bodies such as Ofgem are extremely powerful, and from the point of view of the consumer and the general public it is important that a very close watch is kept on their activities. I am happy to support what is in this paper because the balance of advantage between consumer and supplier is tilted very much one way, and this will tilt it back the other way.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I think that I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for his comments. It is always difficult to get the balance right in these matters, which is what we are trying to do in a number of other pieces of legislation—as the noble Lord will be aware—that are before another place at the moment.

It is important that we ensure that Ofgem has the appropriate powers to look after the consumer interest. Obviously, we take very seriously the idea of any extension of powers that we might grant to Ofgem or any other body, and that is why, under the Police-and-whatever-it-is Act 2001, we have to make an order if we want to do that. They are affirmative orders and we have to come to the House to argue the case for them. That is what I am doing.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, was slightly worried about the consultation and whether we listened to the consultees. What I said in my opening remarks was that the industry and stakeholders, perhaps not surprisingly, believed the additional powers were disproportionate, but I added that others, including consumer groups—this is the point that the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, picked up—were neutral or in favour of the provision. The Government have to consider these matters very carefully.

Works Detrimental to Navigation (Powers and Duties of Inspectors) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Lord Bradshaw

Thursday 15th March 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords, I would like to inquire into some of the background. I do not know whether the Minister has these details but, first, may we know how many real incidents there have been? Secondly, how many inspectors are there and what is the chance that a person who is not complying will actually be caught?

The system which the Government have in mind will obviously cost some money. I do not know whether they intend to expand the inspectorate or whether this is another duty to be laid upon the existing inspectors. Is there going to be any extra cost or extra inspectors? Can we also be clear whether this applies only to any obstruction which has an association with the hydrocarbon industry, or are other places such as old windfarm foundations covered in these regulations?

The Minister mentioned non-compliance. There is also some mention in the documentation of non-compliance, so is he able to tell us how much of it there was, or is, and why it is necessary to produce this further legislation? Can I please get some idea of the penalties which fall upon people who do not comply? For example, apart from fining them, is there any way in which they will be denied a licence in future to punish them, as it were, for not having cleared up any obstructions which they left behind them in the sea? I fully support what the Minister has said about the need to take precautions because the consequences of a ship spilling the oil which it might be carrying or injuring people are quite significant.

There is one other thing. Are these obstacles, if I may call them that, added continuously to the charts used by people who use the sea, and can ships therefore be forewarned that such obstructions are there? I would be grateful if the Minister can fill me in a bit on the background to this.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, I am supportive of the intention behind these regulations and have no wish to delay them in any sense. Before I start, I should like to say how nice it is to have had three Lords Chairman officiating over our modest debate. I am sure it must be a very interesting chance for the Lord Speaker to shine a spotlight into the activities of your Lordships’ House in a way that is not often possible.