Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Turner of Camden

Monday 10th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

My Lords, I understand from the Government’s statement and from what the Minister has said that the intention is to ensure that people who ought to be covered by the Act in future will in fact be covered. What bothers me about it, however, is Clause 4, which gives the Secretary of State the right to make amendments as to what individuals count as workers for the purpose of this part. It seems to me that that leaves the whole thing fairly wide open as far as the Government are concerned: they would be able to introduce secondary legislation to indicate that some people are workers and other people are not workers. That is a bit of a difficulty as far as we are concerned.

As far as the clause itself is concerned, it had been my intention to move that it should be opposed, mainly because the TUC’s view is that the wording as it now exists in the Bill introduces a public interest test into whistleblowing rights and, for such claims to succeed, the employee will have to demonstrate that he believed that disclosure was in the public interest and that this belief was reasonable in the circumstances. The view of the TUC was that this would limit the protection that employees have in raising concerns about health and safety issues at work. The Law Society also has doubts about this clause. For these reasons I intended to oppose the clause. However, my noble friends have further amendments which we are due to discuss and which I think will deal with some of the problems that some of us have with this clause.

Of course, I am sure that the Minister will appreciate that it is very important to ensure that workers, particularly those working in very dangerous environments, do not have any restrictions about whether or not they may raise problems they have about health and safety at work. I can remember my own union being very much involved with this many years ago when there was the awful accident at Piper Alpha in the offshore oil industry, in which a number of workers were killed. We discovered on investigation that a number of individuals working there had short-term contracts and, because they had short-term contracts, they were very reluctant to warn about the kind of issues that were of concern to them about safety and so on because they feared that they would not have their short-term contracts renewed.

There is a case for looking at the way that this clause in the present legislation works to ensure that we do cover everybody who might have the possibility of drawing attention to possible dangers in their working environment. We must be absolutely certain that they are not prevented in any way from raising those particular issues. I will not, this evening, be pressing the opposition to the whole clause, but I certainly think that we need to look at it very thoroughly before the legislation leaves us.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, in the margins of the debate that we have just had the Minister very kindly passed across the original quote from the 11 May 1998 House of Lords Second Reading debate on the then Public Interest Disclosure Bill. I had to read it very quickly because I was not as well briefed as perhaps I should have been when coming to this debate. I want to make a point that I think influences the way that we might need to respond to the clause-stand-part part of the discussion that we are having today.

The interesting thing about this debate is that we are focusing on the words “the public interest”. I suggest to the Minister that it might be sensible to have a discussion about what the Government are trying to do here. Rather than in the openness of this debate, perhaps we could have a side meeting on it. The reason I am saying that is that, reading the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, one might think that if he made it up as he went along, it was extremely well written. I imagine that he read it out at the time from a brief that he had. The important thing about it—I am sure that the Minister will have been on to this immediately—is that the Minister was selective in what he quoted to us. The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said that,

“the tribunal must be satisfied that that disclosure was reasonable, having regard, among other things, to the seriousness of the threat to the public interest, whether the danger is continuing or likely to occur again, whether the disclosure was in breach of an obligation of confidentiality owed to a third party and, where appropriate, whether use was made of any whistle-blowing procedure which the organisation had in place”.—[Official Report, 11/5/98; col. 891.]

The noble Lord then went on to make the quote to which the Minister referred.

The point that I want to underline is that the tribunal has to be satisfied that disclosure was reasonable: that is the founding principle of this part of the legislation. “Having regard to” is a secondary feature of that in relation to the seriousness of the threat to the public interest. It seems to me that this amendment substitutes the present arrangements for the reasonableness —having regard to other things—of the seriousness of the threat to the public interest, to a direct concern for “the public interest”, however we define that. It seems to me that in making that rather elegant elision we are in danger of opening a much wider range of issues that need more thought than we can possibly give it in this Committee, which is why I suggest that we have a meeting.

The Minister says that this is ongoing work—we welcome that. He says that it is important—we certainly echo that. He is also asserting, and we would agree with this, that we are singing off the same hymn sheet. So we are surely trying to get to the same place here. I do not think that there is a difference of approach: I just worry that the wording is not as you would do it.

The complexity of this issue is that, as the noble Baroness said very clearly, we all want those who should be covered to be covered by this part of the legislation, but we do not want to have the risk that those who could be covered are not covered by it. I think that that is a really important point. It is in that sense that we would ask the Minister to respond to this and, perhaps, to take up our suggestion of a side meeting.

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Turner of Camden

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Turner of Camden]

I understand that the TUC refers to Clause 12 as “Beecroft-lite”, and I think my noble friend Lord Monks has already referred to it in that light. It will be recalled that the Beecroft recommendations were intended to make it easier for employers to hire and fire workers without having to justify or explain the decisions. The recommendations were widely condemned, even by employers’ organisations such as the EEF. Clause 12 enables employers to offer employees a sum of money and a compromise agreement in return for leaving their employment, as we have heard during these discussions. The conversations will remain confidential and cannot be admitted as evidence in unfair dismissal cases.

The TUC opposes the proposals in this clause since it believes that it will send out a clear signal to employers that it is acceptable for them to sack staff for an arbitrary reason without having to follow a dismissal procedure. The provisions in this clause are very complex and likely to lead to possibly costly legal wrangles.

Another point that occurred to me is that nowhere in the Government’s wording is there any reference to trade union representation, although my noble friend Lord Young attempted to introduce it in Amendment 20G. Quite obviously, the right to trade union representation in these circumstances is very necessary. At the same time, as I have already indicated, the proposals are so unsatisfactory that even with the reservations that have been expressed—which may, I hope, cause the Government to look again at these provisions—I still think that this clause should be opposed. That is what the TUC would like us to do, and I certainly believe that there are strong reasons for doing so.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Turner for raising this particular debate because it is when one looks at the whole clause that one is able to reflect a little on the debate so far. We have learnt quite a lot, I think, about the way that the Government wish to approach this area, but we have not understood very much.

Many of the clauses we are discussing in this section of the Bill, and this clause in particular, strike at the heart of the way in which we want our society to be run. I had always understood that it was commonly agreed among the parties represented in your Lordships’ House, and more widely, that there was a case for government to regulate properly the way in which employers and employees went about their business. It should not be obstructive or didactic, but it must bring to bear fairness and other aspects of the good society we all wish to live in.