Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Northover

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this has been a passionate debate on an appalling subject: the brutality of man against man. It should be a given that we do not have a trade deal with a country that is responsible for genocide, but pressure can be irresistible and there will be little scrutiny of new trade deals going forward. As ever, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for ensuring that human rights are always at the forefront. I do not know how he can sleep, with all that he knows threading itself around his mind. Not everyone can do what he does. It is easier to turn aside, but we cannot and must not do so with this Bill.

We discussed this issue, as the noble Lord explained, at an earlier stage of the Bill. The Minister argued then that the Bill deals with continuity agreements and that they do not involve trading partners who might be implicated here. In the light of that earlier discussion, the movers recast Amendment 68 so that culpable regimes are more easily identified, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said. He also makes the point that the purpose of the Bill is drawn more widely than simply continuity agreements, including making

“provision about the implementation of international trade agreements”

and similar wider definitions. That is why Amendment 76A is within scope.

The United Kingdom is a signatory to the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which was established after the Nazi genocide. Many said then, “Never again”, but as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, powerfully said, those are often empty words. As a signatory, we are required to prevent, protect and punish. The legal definition and threshold are set very high, as others have said. We know the difficulty of seeking international agreement that genocide has been carried out. After much delay and prevarication, a genocide was declared in Rwanda. However, even the Human Rights Council, set up to try to ensure that those whose record means that they should not qualify to be on it, now has its hands tied by those elected to be its members, including, of course, those Security Council vetoers, Russia and China.

The International Court of Justice has determined that the actions of Myanmar in relation to the Rohingya Muslims are genocide, but the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has pointed to the limits of the ICJ. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, has cited the conclusions of the China Tribunal, headed by Sir Geoffrey Nice, whose work in the Balkans war crimes trials gives him the most terrible background to lead this, with crimes against humanity proved beyond all doubt. However, we also know that the scales are tipped when it comes to holding China to account. My noble friend Lady Smith of Newnham makes clear the hurdles for holding anyone to account on genocide.

Given the difficulty of establishing this internationally, the amendment proposes that the High Court should be asked to make a determination. I agree with my noble friend Lady Smith and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that that is an astute way to do this. If the court believed that the threshold of the 1948 genocide convention had been reached, trade arrangements with the offending country would be nullified. We need various means, including some of those mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. I am struck by the noble and learned Lord’s conclusion on the rule of law here and the strength that that brings to this issue. The arrangement proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is in keeping with those that some key American lawyers are now arguing should be applied to the UN Security Council, which could itself be taken to the ICJ if it is not addressing genocide, given the responsibility of each country to adhere to the convention.

One would hope that amendments such as these were not required and no doubt the Minister will say so, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. However, we know that genocide continues to take place and we must face that. It is easier to turn away and that is why we must put this protection in the Bill.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for his amendment and his excellent speech, which said everything that needs to be said around this very difficult area, with considerable skill and a huge amount of information that we will need time to absorb.

The House seems united in the view that this is a serious issue that has a lot of support and needs to be implemented. I will be interested to hear how the Minister responds to it. What is most attractive about the amendment is the innovative use of the courts as a way of trying to give a point of factual accuracy around which decisions can be taken. I have not seen this before; it is not something that we have ever had proposed and it is worthy of further consideration. Indeed, it may have wider applications.

That puts the House in a bit of a spot. If it is clear that there is a way of checking, in a way that is respected in the use of our courts, to assess whether or not an action needs to be taken, are we not put on notice to live up to our responsibilities as signatories to this convention to prevent, protect and punish? Indeed, if we care about our moral values as a nation, we should have no grounds not to support the amendment.

Having said that, I wonder whether it is worth picking up one or two points that suggest that a bit more work on the amendment might make it achieve even more. Others have picked up on the question of why it is applied only to rollover agreements when it has the capacity to deal with all free trade agreements. Although this is a terrible thing to say, why stop at the issue of genocide? Are there not other egregious issues that would need to be considered in the same class as genocide? As my noble and learned kinsman Lord Hope said, the torture convention may well be an opportunity for further thinking around this area.

While I support what has been said today about the proposal and I want to give whatever assistance we can to the movers of the amendment, I suggest that maybe there should be other discussions before we reach Report, because what is said in the amendment goes with the grain of so many other amendments that we have looked at around the question of human rights that it would be good to see if we could find something that brought them all together. We need something that is helpful to the broader causes that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, espouses but is capable of bringing in other issues that other Members of the House also care about.

Export Licences: High Court Judgment

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Northover

Thursday 20th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement made in another place. I recognise that it is a complex area for which he may not have the full briefing at his fingertips, and I shall not be pressing him too hard on some its more exotic elements, including the question of whether or not the Ruggie principles have been adapted and successfully applied in this case.

The Statement ends with a rather interesting point:

“The Court of Appeal judgment does not undermine the UK’s overall framework for export controls as set out in the”,


EU consolidated criteria. These criteria have been there for some time and are,

“shared by EU member states”.

I put it to the Minister that that cannot be quite correct, because I understand from reading press reports that Germany and Denmark, which are both members of the EU, have in fact decided to withdraw sales of arms to Saudi Arabia. So, in a sense, different decisions have already been reached; this is not a universal position. Does he have any thoughts on that?

Secondly, as the Minister rightly points out, this is a judicial review. It is not a test of whether or not the policy adopted by Her Majesty’s Government is correct. We follow entirely on that point of view, but it leads to roughly the same position, which is that the Government have been given a pretty severe blow to their current workings. Errors in the process, to the legal mind at least, have been pointed out and will need to be looked at again. I am glad to hear that the granting of export licences has now been cancelled until such time as this is resolved. The issue of course will be uncertain until such time as any appeal is launched and heard. Could the Minister say a bit more about that? It is being reviewed, but this will obviously affect how things go forward, so does he think that it is likely?

The key factor in the finding is that the Government,

“made no concluded assessments of whether the Saudi-led coalition had committed violations of international humanitarian law in the past, during the Yemen conflict, and made no attempt to do so”.

Irrespective of whether or not the end result would be the same, the fact that the Government have no concluded assessments is the reason why the judgment has been overturned in the Appeal Court. In a sense, that is probably all that needs to be said on that, except that there is a question of whether it raises any issues about the broader context in which these decisions are reached.

We had a number of amendments down in Committee and on Report for the Trade Bill when it recently passed through your Lordships’ House which probed some of the issues being raised in the judgment today. It is, as the Minister said, a complex situation involving the Ministry of Defence, the Department for International Trade and the Foreign Office—it has recently been revamped following the formation of the separate department DfIT; previously BEIS was the lead body on the trade element. We received assurances that this was not only a very efficient and effective system but that it was effectively best in class in comparison with the rest of the world. Could the Minister confirm that that is still the view of Her Majesty’s Government on this issue, irrespective of the judgment, and that he is content that the present arrangements are robust and reliable?

Turning to the actual impact of the judgment, I have touched on the question of whether or not arms sales should be suspended if they are likely to be used in the Yemen conflict. The Minister has confirmed that that has happened. Therefore, could he follow up, given that that is the situation and there is an issue at stake here, on whether it might be appropriate to establish a public inquiry so that we can better understand the issues and make sure that lessons are learned? Will he comment on that?

My third point is a more complex one, and I will fully understand if the Minister does not have the information with him; he may wish to write to me. In press reports there is wide evidence of air strikes on non-military targets in Yemen. I refer to a recent Guardian article—it may not be his regular reading, but it is available on the web. It says that the British Government have in recent years,

“deployed RAF personnel to work as engineers, and to train Saudi pilots and targeteers—while an even larger role is played by”,

the private company,

“BAE Systems, Britain’s biggest arms company, which the government has subcontracted to provide weapons, maintenance and engineers inside Saudi Arabia”.

There is also a quote from the Channel 4 programme “Dispatches”, in which a BAE employee said:

“If we weren’t there, in seven to 14 days there wouldn’t be a jet in the sky”.


We are clearly supplying matériel not just to Saudi Arabia for the use of the coalition in the battles in Yemen; we are also supplying it to individuals, who are performing acts which might be considered to be in support of the work which has now been found to be illegal by the Court of Appeal. If that is the case and there are British personnel actively carrying out this work, is there not a danger that they might be prosecuted for what they are doing in the International Criminal Court? If so, could he confirm what Her Majesty’s Government’s position on that would be?

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement.

The judges concluded that it was “irrational and therefore unlawful” for the Government to have made the export licensing decisions without making adequate assessment of whether past incidents amounted to breaches of international humanitarian law and whether measures subsequently taken meant that there was no longer a “clear risk” that future exports might breach such law. They said:

“The question whether there was an historic pattern of breaches of IHL ... was a question which required to be faced”.


Does the Minister agree that this clearly and obviously must be the case? The pattern of serious violations did not simply need to be “taken into account”, as the Divisional Court found; the Court of Appeal ruled that the pattern has to be properly assessed and considered. In other words, the question of whether Saudi Arabia has breached international humanitarian law has to be answered. Does the Minister not regard this conclusion as an extraordinary indictment—that the Government had not properly made such assessments, despite all the pressure on them to do so, not least in Parliament?

Does he note that the US Senate will be voting on more than a dozen resolutions today aimed at blocking the Trump Administration’s sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia? What is the view of the UK Government on that? Indeed, they say that others may come to other conclusions, but some of the same evidence may be available to them as well as to us.

The Government imply in the Statement that they are making adequate assessments—in which case, as part of that wider consideration, have they looked at what happened, for example, to Jamal Khashoggi? Are they taking note of the UN report, for example, which states that the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia should be investigated over his murder because there is “credible evidence” that he and other senior officials may be liable for the killing? The UN special rapporteur says that the death of the journalist was “an international crime”. She says:

“It is the conclusion of the special rapporteur that Mr Khashoggi has been the victim of a deliberate, premeditated execution, an extrajudicial killing for which the state of Saudi Arabia is responsible under international human rights law”.


We are here looking at international human rights law and the extent to which Saudi Arabia adheres to it.

Have the Government also noted the imprisonment and execution of dissidents, including minors? Have they noted that Saudi-led forces have hit civilians, hospitals, schools and school buses in Yemen? We have asked questions about these attacks and have been assured that the Government did not think that international humanitarian law was broken. How could they say that if it was not properly assessed?

Like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I note the decision of Germany and Denmark not to sell arms to Saudi Arabia. Again, I point to the evidence that they will be looking at, which will be similar to the evidence that we can see.

The Government are signing up to agreements on human rights—work led by the Dutch in the EU. How does this square with that? Does he recall that the International Relations Committee concluded that the UK Government were, if only just, on the wrong side in this matter—I note that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, is in his place?

Astonishingly, one strand to which the Government pay attention is Saudi Arabia’s public statements about its commitment to adhere to international humanitarian law. Surely the time has come to examine the evidence properly and in a disinterested way. If this is done, does the Minister not believe that the time has come to ban the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia?

Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and Baroness Northover

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am sure that the Minister will not mind debating my favourite topic, which I know she shares. I will not in any sense apologise for the lateness of the hour because it ain’t late.

When we were preparing for these debates, we obviously had regard to the substance of the Bill and the need to make sure that we lived up to the promise that we gave that there would be satisfactory scrutiny. I hope that we have done that today; I certainly feel as though we have. I am grateful to the Minister and the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, for their responses, which will be in Hansard and will be very important in fleshing out the wording of the Bill in relation to how it will apply to those who have to implement it and take it forward. That is a very important part of this process.

There may be one or two things that we will want to come back to on Report but I do not see them being very significant or necessarily contested. I think there will just be more clarification or perhaps a chance to exemplify or build on stuff that has already been covered today. Indeed, we have already found that much of the stuff we did today was raised also at Second Reading. So we will have had a very full canter through these issues.

We should not in any sense demean the value of the Bill in terms of how it will change and shape what British forces and others involved in the protection of cultural property will do in the future—it is a Bill that we want to see go through in its present form and we do not wish to change it—but it occurred to me that I could not let Clause 32 pass without going back to my favourite topic, which is the need to minimise the burden on business by reducing the number of dates on which regulation floods in under the agency of a Government who are supposedly trying to cut back on red tape. The Minister will argue—rightly, I am sure—that the Bill does not apply primarily to business and therefore probably escapes the prohibitions that might come from statutory instruments deriving from it being implemented randomly through the year and therefore there will be no need for compensation, but I am sure she will want to share with me two things.

First, you cannot really let a Bill get through scot free. It should have one amendment, I think. If she wants to do that, here is one. It is not a Christmas tree Bill. These are not Christmas tree presents, but it is a nice, gentle little amendment which will show that we really have exercised the authority, wisdom, history and grandeur of the House of Lords in these troubled times. Secondly, it is a good thing to restrict the number of days on which regulations come in, and I hope she will respond to that. I beg to move.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I rise simply to express the hope that the Bill speeds through rapidly, whatever else is happening around us, and that it is commenced as soon as possible. We have waited a very long time—since 1954—for this Bill to be put in place.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I feel very well scrutinised today. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her support in relation to the speedy passage of the Bill.

The Government recognise the importance of giving as much advance notice as possible of when new regulations and requirements will come into force, particularly where they have an effect on business, as has been said. Of course, common commencement dates are not defined in law, they are a matter of policy, and we are not aware of any precedent for referring to them in legislation. In order to refer to them in the Bill, a definition would need to be included. But our intention is to bring the provisions of the Bill into force as soon as possible after Royal Assent.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, knows that I share his passion for common commencement dates, and if we can bring the Bill in on a common commencement date we will of course do so, but we have to balance that with the need to get ahead and implement the convention and the protocols. As I see it, the sooner we are able to bring the provisions of the Bill into force, the sooner we will be able to ratify the convention and its protocols and ensure that cultural property has the protection it needs, which is provided for in the Bill, and hold our head up high in international institutions that are concerned with cultural property.