HMS “Victory”

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, for securing this debate and to all noble Lords who have contributed. It is hard not to feel very uncomfortable about what is happening here. Most of what we have heard has focused on fears about how decisions have been made about the future of one of the most important 18th century shipwrecks discovered in recent years, and it all raises serious concerns as to how the UK Government will manage the protection of historic wreck sites, whether or not in international waters, in the future.

I will start with two of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington. First, on archaeological merit, is this site of sufficient merit and historical value to justify the work which is being considered? As we have heard, at the time of her loss, HMS “Victory” was the most powerful ship in the world, and her loss had far-reaching consequences on the war, the Royal Navy and the public. It will also answer questions of why she foundered, whose fault it was, how she was constructed and also, I suspect, let us examine properly the fine cannons she was carrying when she went down.

Are the Government really convinced that a full-scale excavation is appropriate for this wreck, given that, as we have also heard, HMS “Victory” was carrying perhaps 1,000 men when she went down and there is photographic evidence of human remains? So there is the important question of how to treat the remains, and the memory of those who gave their lives. What steps will the Government be taking in this respect?

The noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, suggested that the DCMS should be taking the lead for historic wrecks. Can the Minister comment on that suggestion? The noble Lord, Lord Lingfield, confirmed when he spoke that any deaccessioning had to be approved by the Secretary of State for Defence. What role does this leave for the DCMS?

As we have heard, the UK has not yet signed up in full to the UNESCO Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage. Will the Minister explain exactly why that is the case, whether discussions are ongoing on these concerns, and whether there is a timetable for the UK to sign up to? We also understand that the Government have agreed that all work must comply with Annex A to the UNESCO convention. Given that rule 17 of the annex makes it clear that adequate funding must be in place before work starts, what steps have the Government taken to establish that the Maritime Heritage Foundation has adequate independent funding in place in order to finance the work that it proposes to carry out? Does the Minister agree that by entering into what is effectively a commercial salvage contract with Odyssey Marine Exploration, the Maritime Heritage Foundation lays the Government open to the charge that they have not fulfilled their proper obligations to ensure that this internationally important cultural site is protected from commercial exploitation?

If, as we have heard, Odyssey has offered to excavate the wreck at its own risk, and if it is true that the Maritime Heritage Foundation has no substantial funds, it must follow that the £20 million or so that will have to be found must come from somewhere. According to the Odyssey website, their agreement with the MHF calls for,

“Odyssey’s project costs to be reimbursed and for Odyssey to be paid a percentage of the recovered artefacts’ fair value”.

There is provision for the payment to be made either in cash or in deaccessioned artefacts. The agreement goes on to say:

“Odyssey will receive the equivalent of 80% of the fair value of artefacts which were primarily used in trade or commerce … and 50% of the fair value of all other objects”,

including objects associated,

“with the construction, crewing and sailing of ships”—

which to my mind includes the cannons.

At present, the only known items of potential value are the bronze cannons, but even at the most inflated prices that would cover a small proportion of the cost. There are absolutely no guarantees that there will be gold coins or bullion on board, and most people take the view that there will not be.

Put simply, the sums do not add up. What assessment have the Government made of the Maritime Heritage Foundation’s plan, and what is the current state of play? What plans have the Government or the Maritime Heritage Foundation to display the excavated materials, and can the Minister explain where and at whose cost this would happen? What about the cost of preparation for display, and where will the ongoing revenue costs come from?

In a recent article in the Sunday Times, Greg Stemm, the CEO of Odyssey, was quoted as saying:

“On this shipwreck a model has been proposed that will see great archaeological resources utilised to bring it back to life at no cost to taxpayers. Shouldn’t we allow that model to play out and see how it works?”

This seems a rather unsafe way to treat our heritage, and I suggest that the answer to that question is no.

As I said earlier, this whole issue does not seem right. The Government have not followed their own stated policy guidelines, and there is so much doubt about what is happening on the site, that I invite the Minister to consider whether he thinks that there is now sufficient concern to warrant suspending work on the wreck site until all this is sorted out.