Scotland: Referendum

Debate between Lord Steel of Aikwood and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 15th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, on the first question, it will be up to both Houses of the Parliament to agree the Section 30 order. I did not understand the second question at all. To coin a phrase, we are all in this together. Across this Dispatch Box—I do not know where the noble Lord stands on these great matters; I thought that he was rather in favour of the United Kingdom—we will be working together to ensure the desired result in the referendum.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, we have already had a year and a half of debate about Scottish independence and I must admit that the thought that we are to have another two years of debate fills me with gloom. We have the consolation of knowing that, through that period, public opinion has moved in favour of retaining our position in the United Kingdom and we must hope that that continues.

I was encouraged by what the noble Lord said a moment ago about the Electoral Commission, because the Statement itself was weak on that question. If the Electoral Commission takes the view that any question beginning with the words, “Do you agree that”, is a leading question, surely it will not be possible for the Scottish Parliament to ignore that. Would it not be better than having a yes/no question simply to have two conflicting statements against which the electorate put a cross: either, “I am in favour of Scottish independence”, or, “I am in favour of retaining the United Kingdom”?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, under this legislation, the referendum must take place by the end of 2014—I think that essentially it is understood that it should be in the autumn of 2014—so there is plenty of time to go. Some people will find that hard to put up with; some people will find it reasonable that we should have plenty of time to discuss these important issues. As for the question, the Electoral Commission is not binding on the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament must ultimately approve the question. The point that I was trying to make is that if there was a leading question with which the Electoral Commission disagreed—its report will be made available to the Scottish Parliament—I suspect that there would be a political price to pay for that.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Steel of Aikwood and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 9th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to bring forward proposals for incremental urgent reforms that would improve the functioning of the existing House of Lords, notwithstanding their proposals for more fundamental changes.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, we have no plans to bring forward additional legislative proposals to reform this House, but we look forward to considering the recommendations of the Procedure Committee to provide for permanent voluntary retirement and to make amendments to the arrangements for leave of absence.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I assume that the Leader of the House is aware that the wording of my Question is lifted completely and exactly from the seventh report of the House of Commons Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, which urges those proposing radical reform to address immediate issues and concludes:

“This is a pressing issue that cannot wait four years to be resolved”.

Does the Leader accept that?

[Lord Strathclyde]

Not entirely, my Lords, which is why I said in my initial reply that we were looking forward to some of the incremental changes, many of which were born out of the Bill that my noble friend originally proposed several years ago, such as permanent voluntary retirement and improving leave of absence. The draft Bill that the Government published on 17 May includes a whole range of proposals that, given a fair wind, could get Royal Assent by the end of the next Session.

House of Lords: Facilities

Debate between Lord Steel of Aikwood and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend was a Member of the House when it had a membership of well over 1,000.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend has yet had time to read the report from the House of Commons constitutional committee, which said that, despite the wonderful plans for 2015 and 2025, the Government should get on with improving the functioning of this House now. Would not the easiest way of doing that be to take over my Private Member’s Bill, which had such a warm welcome at Second Reading and is already under way? It is a free gift that is being offered.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend’s offer is kind and generous, but he will know that at the last election no political party supported his Bill—no party had it in its manifesto—whereas there is a consensus to have an elected House in 2015.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Steel of Aikwood and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, paragraph 7 is in the context of the powers of the House not changing. I made that plain in the original Statement, and I make it plain again. However, the relationship between the two Houses would evolve over time. I see no difficulty in that. It has already evolved over the last 20 years and I think it would continue. The only basis for having an elected House would be to give this House greater authority to use its powers more assertively and effectively.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I wonder whether my noble friend has read the report published last week from the House of Commons Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, which said,

“those proposing radical reform need also to address other incremental, urgent reforms that would improve the functioning of the existing House of Lords”.

Does that not echo the recommendation about retirement in the report of the committee that his noble friend Lord Hunt reported on a few weeks ago? Since my Bill deals with these issues, has already had a Second Reading and is just awaiting Committee stage, why do the Government not take it over and get on with it?

[Lord Strathclyde]

I hope that my noble friend is pleased that the Procedure Committee will very soon, I hope, bring forward a proposal for permanent voluntary retirement from this House. The White Paper also lays out a statutory appointments commission if we should still have appointed Members. If we are to go forward on this, it is likely that we would spend many days and weeks on it. Therefore I wonder whether my noble friend really feels the need to progress with his own Bill.

Interim Report: Leader's Group on Members Leaving the House

Debate between Lord Steel of Aikwood and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am delighted to open this short debate today on the interim report of the Leader’s Group, which was chaired admirably by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. The group was established in July with the terms of reference,

“to identify options for allowing members to leave the House of Lords permanently”.

The group has consulted widely and today’s debate provides a further opportunity for consultation. I look forward this afternoon to hearing the views of those noble Lords who will be speaking and I am sure that other noble Lords who read the official record will write in with their views.

We should begin by rehearsing the context of today’s debate. Over some time, there have been comments by a number of noble Lords that they would like to find a way to leave the House, although not usually to surrender their title at the same time. In every Session since 2007, such comments have distilled around the House of Lords Reform Bill, a Private Member’s Bill first introduced as far back as 2007 by my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood. We have the inestimable pleasure of the Bill’s resurrection once again this Session. Although my noble friend is not down to speak in today’s debate, we have only to wait until 3 December when the Second Reading of the Bill is scheduled.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

The noble Lord does not need to wait until 3 December. I remind him that, in the days before we were locked together in unholy matrimony, as Leader of the Opposition he opposed my Bill, which included primary legislation on this very subject that is now recommended by the Hunt committee. Can I look forward to his support the week after next?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I say again what a pity it is that we will not hear the noble Lord’s full speech this afternoon. The luxury of being in opposition was that I could make these decisions on my own. As a member of the Cabinet there is a process to undergo, but I shall let him know well before 3 December whether the Government will support his Bill on this occasion. That was the first point of context—the debates that we had on my noble friend’s Bill.

The second point of context is that a system of leaving the House has existed since 1958 under the leave of absence scheme. When the scheme was introduced, Lord Home predicted that some hundreds of Peers would avail themselves of it. I hear the same forecasts today. When I took my seat in 1986, there were 1,096 Peers with Writs and 133—12 per cent—had taken leave of absence. That figure rose to 169—more than 15 per cent—in 1987-88. Today, 738 Members are eligible to sit and just 19—2.5 per cent—have taken leave of absence. Clearly, the reported tide of desire to leave the place is not being reflected in the leave of absence scheme. One question that we are all interested to explore is: what is the mystery ingredient that would translate the mere 19 on leave of absence into the hundreds that some have hoped for? After all, average daily attendance here this Session is 424, which is well over 300 fewer than our total number.

The third important context is the coalition agreement, which announced that the Government will publish a draft Bill for reform of your Lordships’ House. The draft Bill will be published in the new year and will be scrutinised—no doubt in some detail—by a Joint Committee of both Houses. The draft Bill will include plans for transition. I can give an undertaking to the House that we will be looking to see whether the fruits that ultimately emerge from the Leader’s Group and from this debate will help point us in the right direction for transitional arrangements. I very much hope that they will.

My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral and the other members of the Group are in the process of considering the options for reducing the current size of the House. Today’s debate gives noble Lords a further opportunity to add their views about what steps, if any, should be taken. The options fall into three broad categories, which are covered in the interim report. First, there are steps that could be taken by the House itself, without the need for legislation, to provide for retirement. While there may be some disadvantages to this approach, at least it could be done quickly. It would provide a means of retirement that many Members would like to see. The other two options would require legislation. One option would provide the legislative underpinning for permanent voluntary resignation. The other would involve an element of compulsion, which could involve, for example, Members being excluded on grounds of age or length of service or the holding of elections to determine which Members should remain in the House.

I should touch briefly on the subject of financial provision, simply in order to rule out any payment for retirement for the time being. In the current context it would simply not be understood by the British people.

Although the context is clear, today’s debate is not about wider reform. It is not even about the Government’s view on whether and how Members should be allowed, or made, to leave the House. Today’s debate is about consultation, about hearing the views of as many noble Lords as possible and about giving them the opportunity to respond to the options set out in the interim report. My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral and I look forward very much to hearing those contributions.

House of Lords Reform

Debate between Lord Steel of Aikwood and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

My Lords, I said at the beginning that I would listen to the debate. I have been encouraged by the strong support for my Motion. Therefore, I propose to move it without making another speech but I will simply clarify two things. Contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said, the Motion is not an alternative to the resolution of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde; it is a precursor to it. It is clear that the course on which the Government are embarked will take at least the five years of this Parliament. We need running repairs now. If the four separate resolutions are passed—I stress to my noble friend Lord Caithness that they are separate and might not all be passed—there is no reason why draft or full legislation could not be introduced in the autumn. Three of the points are already in legislative form from the previous Government. Therefore, the legislation could go through during this Session and we could achieve the running repairs which this House so badly needs. I beg to move.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)]

My Lords, I am surprised that this Motion has been moved. I was rather hoping that the debate we have had over the last few hours would have been enough for your Lordships, so I have not prepared many words. However, the Order Paper is a serious document, and if Motions are tabled and moved they need to be taken seriously, so I should formally respond to the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood.

This is an unusual Motion. I have never seen one quite like it before and we are taking it at an unusual time of night. It is unusual because it is unclear what its intended effect is. On the advice that I have received, it does not bind the Government to do anything. It simply asks the House—or gives it the opportunity, which it can take at any stage it wants—to give an opinion on various matters. It does not inexorably lead then to any legislation. From that point of view the Motion is rather pointless, though I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Steel, when he replies, will explain why it has a point and what that point is.

The Motion asks the Government to table Motions which could approve or disapprove certain requirements. In my speech this afternoon, some hours ago, I explained that I had had cause to set up a Leader’s Group that will look at the position of retirement of Members from this House permanently, and that the group would be chaired by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral. I would hope that that would have dealt with that. There is certainly no scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, does not have a scheme; I do not have a scheme. We are all rather hoping that my noble friend will be able to come up not necessarily with one scheme but many different schemes. There are several options. The whole point of my noble friend’s job is to try to find out what these options, and their pros and cons, are. Therefore, I do not see that there is any particular point on that because I think there is a substantial desire in this House to have a scheme for retirement. I was rather hoping that there would be a murmur of approval for that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

But it is not a government Bill. It has been introduced several times and found to have enormous flaws. A responsible Government would have to ask a parliamentary draftsman to draft a measure. The noble Lord with his government experience knows this. We would need to do that at the earliest opportunity. We are going to fast track this. It could not be published before October or November. That is just a few weeks before we will publish our own Bill. I do not think that I could go to the committee of parliamentary business managers and say that the House of Lords wants an advantage of just a few weeks to discuss in government time the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Steel. With the best will in the world, that is not going to happen.

All that I will say is that it has been a tremendous debate. I am glad that I have been able to answer the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood. He has been very patient for a number of years. Now we are asking him to be patient for a few more months and he will get everything that he wants and probably deserves.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

All that I would say to that is that I do not want to wait for another five years. We need these matters to be resolved now. I beg to move.