Dog Control Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Skelmersdale and Lord Redesdale
Lord Skelmersdale
That said, my Lords, in the instance that my noble friend has just given, surely the dogs were out of control but not dangerously out of control. They might have become dangerous later. Therefore, what is “dangerously” doing in line 14?
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, if they cause fear that is a situation. However, we should take this in context. If noble Lords would read the Bill, its purpose is not to go down the route of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 so that any offence leads to the dogs being taken away and destroyed. If a control notice is given, it might be that it implies only that the owner should keep the dog on a lead in public places. It might imply that the owner should muzzle the dog or that the owner should undergo training. Many of these notices would stop all the problems that then go forward. Many of the dogs that attack children have a reputation for being out of control. Many dogs that attack other dogs go on to attack people. The purpose of this Bill is to bring about an early intervention at that point so that a control notice can be introduced which is appropriate to the situation.
Lord Redesdale
The noble Lord’s eye for detail is legendary in this regard. I will look again at the wording at a later stage and, if it is not fit for purpose, I shall bring back an amendment.
Lord Skelmersdale
When the noble Lord is looking at these two proposed new subsections to Clause 3, perhaps he could look again at subsection (5)(a). I note that it means any local authority or police officer, within the proviso given by subsection (6)—but what on earth is an “appropriate national authority” in this case?
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, the wording of this amendment is to try to give as much latitude as possible but also to ensure that the area is dealt with by those with knowledge. There is a grouping within local authorities that understands present dog legislation, just as there are groupings within the police that understand the legislation. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that that knowledge is used so that we do not end up with a situation in which any police officer at any point can bring about an action that might be inappropriate.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I am afraid that my noble friend has misunderstood my point, which I may have abbreviated a little too much. I am looking at proposed new subsection (5)(a), which talks about an “appropriate national authority”. I am not sure what makes a national authority appropriate in this case but, in any event, the word by definition must be restrictive.
Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, I notice that paragraph 3 of the Schedule says that the,
“database operator must … provide the information in section 6 free of charge to authorised third parties during all normal working hours”.
That sounds perfectly reasonable. However, if you go on to sub-paragraph (3)—I am referring to a point I made about the word “appropriate” in a debate on an earlier clause—it says, “any police constable”, or, more importantly,
“any representative of the Secretary of State; or .. any representative of the local authority”.
If a national authority has to be “appropriate” in one part of the Bill, surely it should be “appropriate” in the other. I believe that it should be appropriate in neither.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, I have given an undertaking to look at the word “appropriate” again. I will obviously discuss this with the noble Lord. The purpose of the Schedule is to ensure that the provision is not limited to those who are appropriate who can undertake this action.