Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Lord Singh of Wimbledon Excerpts

Wednesday 19th June 2013 Lords Chamber

With respect, this response is unconvincing. As we have seen, there is already uncertainty about which decisions are public functions. The proposed new clause would introduce a degree of clarity in one area of activity, and that can hardly be regarded as unhelpful. A risk, possibly a significant risk, has been identified. Even if litigation against a religious organisation may ultimately be successfully resisted, that will be so only after the organisation has incurred costs. Religious organisations should not be exposed to such costs, particularly if they are not public bodies, as the Government assert. The explicit protection provided in the amendment is clearly needed. I beg to move.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I shall speak in favour of Amendment 13. As was mentioned on Monday and has been mentioned today, the public sector equality duty rightly requires public authorities to eliminate discrimination, work for equality of opportunity and foster good relations. It is a welcome measure that makes ours a fairer society.

However, we all know that those in authority can, and often do, misuse their authority to intimidate or bully others in employment or those who approach them for goods and services. As Shakespeare and Dickens observed, office can be intoxicating, particularly if you feel that you are working for the greater good. It can lead to a messianic zeal to convert others to your way of thinking. There is a real danger that if this legislation comes into force, some will use it to try to convert those who believe in traditional marriage to their way of thinking. I believe that the amendment is necessary to draw attention to and protect sincerely held beliefs that harm no one—beliefs that will with hindsight be seen as having important implications for family cohesion and the well-being of children. Clarity of the law benefits everyone; lack of clarity benefits only the lawyers.

[Lord Hylton]

I shall speak to Amendment 17. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, for adding her name to it. I hope that I can be fairly brief. Despite assurances and the amendments made by the Minister in Committee and on Report in the other place, I believe that there is still uncertainty about the meaning of compulsion and the word “compelled”. The amendment is designed to remove that uncertainty. It aims to make things clear, and thus protect religious organisations and their members from all legal penalties. It would prevent public authorities treating such organisations less favourably if they decide not to opt in. For example, in some sphere completely unconnected and separate from marriage—such as the provision of a youth club or a night shelter—public authorities would be acting ultra vires if they penalised religious bodies for not opting in, and thus co-operating with the Bill when it becomes law.

It is important that such assurances should be plain in the Bill. My amendment tends to consolidate and reinforce the Government’s quadruple lock. I urge the Minister to take away all three amendments in this group to see whether they can result in improved amendments on Report.

--- Later in debate ---

Frankly, if I personally were in charge of marketing in any of our principal churches, I would be a little worried. However, that is, of course, a matter for them. The worrying thing for me is the way in which they have been able, with the greatest courtesy, to mobilise objections and amendments to this particular piece of legislation, which I strongly support.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

On the question of religions falling out of step with civil society, religions are there to give values to society, lasting and ethical values, on which society should be based for its own good so that responsibility and consideration of others is there. I see dangers in civil society falling out of step with that guidance.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

With the greatest respect, I agree except that I would put it the other way around. The danger that I see for religions, particularly the one to which I feel sentimentally attached, the Church of England, is that they will fall out of step with civil society. For example, the progress that has been made over the past 100 years in rights for women is widely supported in civil society. Therefore, as I said earlier, it seems a little odd to see the Church of England debating whether women should be bishops. It is, of course, a matter for them and for their religious beliefs.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon]

I apologise, but the noble Lord refers to religions—he has clarified the issue now—and gives the example of women. Women were given full equality in the Sikh religion from day one.

It is not a question of marketing. Religions and value-based systems should not go for marketing. They are offering something, and that must not go with the tide. That is absurd.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

As I say, I am not the best person to be advising churches on how to handle the like. However, religions evolve and have, over the centuries, evolved along with society. I would suggest that they might be wise to do so.

In conclusion, I say to the Minister that I very much hope that she will be able to give consideration to this matter. I recognise that we are attempting to slipstream behind the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill, which I strongly support, and which has been strongly supported both in this House and in the other place. We also know—I think we all know this—that even with a piece of legislation of this kind, which is non-party and free vote, officials look to their Ministers for guidance. I have no doubt that if my noble friend the Minister and the Secretary of State in the other place were to suggest to their officials that they would like to find a way of accommodating humanist marriage within the Bill, they could and would do just that. I very much hope that the Government will move such an amendment on Report.

In the mean time, if I may paraphrase a lyric from Hymns Ancient and Modern, I can assure the House that we in the humanist movement,

“will not cease from mental fight”,

until we have achieved full recognition in the law for humanist marriage.