Police and Crime Commissioners

Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury Excerpts

Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

First, I express my sympathy with the noble Lord—Parliament’s one and only PCC—regarding the number of times that his Benches stand up and criticise PCCs. I have been to Leicester, I have seen him in action, I have met his chief constable and I pay tribute to the work that they do. In terms of funding, the noble Lord will know that the Policing Minister visited every police force in England and Wales with regard to coming to a funding settlement for 2018-19. In addition, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has recently said that he appreciates the pressures that the police are under, not least because of the things that they have had to deal with in the last 12 months.

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend referred to the fact that PCCs can be held accountable, but does she not recognise the problem in the case of Wiltshire? After Operation Conifer, the chief constable moved to another area and the PCC is not standing for re-election. How, then, can the public make their views known?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I fully understand the sentiments expressed by both my noble friend and Members of the House on this issue in general. In terms of the chief constable, although I am not referring to this particular case, moving force does not of itself absolve someone from accountability for their actions. As I said, certainly the PCC who, is much more high-profile than local police authorities, can be held to account by his or her voters.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury Excerpts

Thursday 28th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con)]

My Lords, as many noble Lords have said, Operation Conifer has created a climate of suspicion around Sir Edward Heath even though we have seen no evidence of any credible allegations made against him. This is why I and many others have called for an independent investigation into Operation Conifer.

When I asked the Minister on 19 April whether the Home Office would establish such an inquiry, she replied:

“an inquiry … should be considered only where other available investigatory mechanisms would not be sufficient”.—[Official Report, 19/4/18; col. 1247.]

Let me list what those other investigatory mechanisms are. Here I have the Cabinet Secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, to thank, because in January this year he wrote to me listing who could establish an enquiry. First, he said that a police and crime commissioner can commission an independent review into an investigation conducted by that police force, but the Wiltshire PCC refused, as we know, so it has not happened. Secondly, the Independent Police Complaints Commission can investigate a matter that has been referred to it, but no relevant referral has been made. The Home Secretary does not have the power to direct it to investigate a police force, so that has not happened. Thirdly, the Secretary of State can require Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary to undertake an inspection of a specific police force, but this has not happened. Fourthly, the police and crime commissioner can request that Her Majesty’s Inspectorate carries out an inspection into the activities of its police force. But he has not, so this has not happened.

Let me repeat what the Minister said in April: an inquiry should be considered only in the absence of other investigatory mechanisms. Well, they are absent. I can come to the aid of the Home Office here, thanks again to Sir Jeremy Heywood. This is what he said in his letter:

“the Government has the authority to establish an independent public inquiry … where it appears to [a Minister] that (a) particular events have caused ... public concern”.

He goes on:

“The Government also has the authority to establish a non- statutory inquiry in the form of an ad hoc inquiry.”


So there is now no excuse for the Home Office to say no to an inquiry. I say the Home Office deliberately because I believe that the Minister, for whom I have the greatest respect, genuinely understands the sentiments that I and others have expressed.

We have a new Home Secretary who has already shown his willingness to grasp difficult nettles, so I live in hope. I can well imagine Home Office officials telling him that if he does nothing, demands for an inquiry into Operation Conifer will eventually fade away. Well, we will not fade away and these demands will not fade away.

Police: Independent Inquiries

Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury Excerpts

Thursday 19th April 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what criteria must be satisfied for them to establish an independent inquiry into a police investigation.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, it is not possible to identify a definitive set of criteria to determine when the Government should establish an inquiry. Inquiries result from a huge variety of events, and each decision has to be taken on its merits.

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that the demand for an independent inquiry into the police investigation into Sir Edward Heath is not going to go away? Does she agree that the best thing would of course be for the Wiltshire police and crime commissioner to set up his own independent inquiry? This Tuesday, yet again, he refused point blank to do so. Is not the only option now for the Home Office to set up such an inquiry?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said the other day, an inquiry of any form should be considered only where other available investigatory mechanisms would not be sufficient. I absolutely concur with this demand, which is repeatedly made from your Lordships’ House. My noble friend is correct that the Wiltshire PCC has it in his power to initiate such an inquiry.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effectiveness of Police and Crime Commissioners in holding their chief constables and police forces to account.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, police and crime commissioners have brought local accountability to how chief constables and their forces perform, and work hard to ensure that their local communities have a stronger voice in policing. As the Home Affairs Select Committee recognised in its March 2016 report, PCCs are here to stay and their introduction has worked well.

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con)]

Is my noble friend the Minister aware of what has prompted this Question, namely the Wiltshire Police investigation into Sir Edward Heath and the way in which it was conducted by the then chief constable, Mr Mike Veale? The police and crime commissioner has the power, and some would say the duty, to commission an independent inquiry but, for reasons I do not understand, he has set his face against doing so. Does this not make a mockery of the policy that chief constables are accountable—and should be seen to be accountable—to their commissioner? There really is a need for an independent inquiry.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly understand why my noble friend has brought this Question forward today, and I understand the frustration felt by him and other noble Lords on this matter. A few noble Lords came to see me about this issue and I wrote to them outlining the position on it. I also wrote to the PCC of Wiltshire and I will outline the position again today. Under Section 79 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, the Secretary of State has issued a policing protocol which PCCs and chief constables must have regard to when exercising their functions. This protocol provides scope for a PCC to commission an independent review into a force’s investigation to assist that PCC in their statutory duty of holding the chief constable to account. I could not have made the Government’s position on this clearer, and thank my noble friend for his Question.

Role of Women in Public Life

Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con)]

First, can I say how proud I am to be part of the 25% of speakers—in other words, men—who are speaking this afternoon and this evening? I hope that next year we can get closer to parity—so I shall be enlisting the help and support of my noble friend Lady Jenkin in this cause.

This debate is about the long fight for women to play their full part in the public life of our country. It is about the long battle against the deeply entrenched prejudice that there are jobs that women cannot do, should not do, or cannot do as well as men. The battle has gone on for a century—and it still goes on. Many noble Lords have of course mentioned the Act passed in 1918, which gave women—although only some—the vote and which allowed them to stand for the House of Commons. But a long road still lay ahead. It took another 40 years before women could become Peers and Members of the House of Lords.

Fast forward to 1957, when Harold Macmillan’s Conservative Government brought in the Life Peerages Bill. The Bill was broadly welcomed, but there was opposition to one provision: the admission of female Peers. I will give your Lordships an indication of the kind of prejudice that the campaigners were up against, even as recently as the 1950s. I will read to your Lordships what one Peer said in that debate:

“Frankly, I find women in politics highly distasteful … I believe that there are certain duties and certain responsibilities which nature and custom have decreed men are more fitted to take on … It is generally accepted … that a man’s judgment is generally more logical and less tempestuous than that of a woman. Why then should we encourage women to eat their way, like acid into metal, into positions of trust and responsibility which previously men have held? … If we allow women into this House, where will this emancipation end?”.


He ended his speech by saying that,

“we like women: we admire them; sometimes we even grow fond of them; but we do not like them here”.—[Official Report, 3/12/1957; cols. 710-11.]

Fortunately, the House of Lords overruled him. To give that Peer credit, 25 years later he happily and loyally served in the Government of Margaret Thatcher and disowned his remarks.

However, progress elsewhere was still slow. I was amazed to realise that it was not until the 1960s that we had the first female judge, and we had to wait until the 1970s before women were admitted as members of the London Stock Exchange. Then there was a big breakthrough in 1975 with the election of a woman to lead the Conservative Party. At the time, many people thought that a woman leader, whom they caricatured as shrill and shallow, would be an electoral disaster for the Conservatives. I am told that on the evening that Mrs Thatcher was elected leader, Denis Healey went round the House of Commons poking Conservative MPs in the ribs and saying, “Out for a generation. Out for a generation”. Of course, Mrs Thatcher became the longest-serving Prime Minister of the century.

Whatever one thinks of her politics, she showed the world and a new generation of women that a woman can do a man’s job. Indeed, so much so that when in 1990 John Major became Prime Minister, my 11 year-old niece was shocked to find a man doing the job. She thought that, with the Queen as sovereign and Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister, women running the country in a kind of matriarchy was the norm and that a male Prime Minister was rather strange.

But still the battle had to go on—and it carries on today, well into the 21st century. I refer of course to the BBC. The BBC apparently committed to transparency—but in name only, because for years it hid the gender pay gap, which at last has been exposed. I saw Carrie Gracie give evidence to the House of Commons Select Committee last week. I heard her say, as people will have read, how the BBC had tried to justify her unequal pay by telling her that for the first three years as the BBC’s China editor she had been “in development”. Those in the BBC responsible for that should be ashamed of themselves. Christina Lamb, the highly distinguished journalist who has worked for the Financial Times and the Sunday Times, was on “Desert Island Discs” a couple of weeks ago. She said that in 30 years she had never had a female foreign or news editor.

So prejudice persists and, sadly, it still does in some areas of politics. Seven years ago, in 2010, John McDonnell MP said that he wished he could go back in time and assassinate Margaret Thatcher. Then in 2014 he repeated remarks which had been made by somebody else about lynching Esther McVey. I played it back last night. Far from condemning the remarks, he quoted them approvingly—and they were followed by laughter from the audience. I know that he has now tried to disown those remarks—and rightly so, because surely, following the murder of Jo Cox, people should realise how inflammatory and dangerous such casual language can be. Therefore, I welcome the prospect of legislation from this Government to protect parliamentary candidates from abuse and intimidation.

This is a hugely important debate and I have only one regret—I wish that more men were taking part in it.

Deceased Individuals: Allegations

Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I did not hear a question, but I agree with the noble Lord. He better puts the point that I was trying to make on the previous question—it may be in the interests of an investigation to name a person—but there is clear guidance on this.

[Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con)]

My Lords, on the question of Operation Conifer, the investigation into Sir Edward Heath by Wiltshire Police, does my noble friend agree that there has been real public concern about the way that it has been conducted by Wiltshire Police and the chief constable of Wiltshire? What options are available for there to be an independent inquiry into the conduct of Wiltshire Police’s inquiry?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly acknowledge the concern, and in terms of a public inquiry being set up, it would be for the chief constable, in discussion with the PCC, or indeed the PCC himself or herself, to set up an inquiry. I have written to the PCC to inform him of this. I hope that I have clarified the situation on the process for an inquiry.