Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Sentamu and Lord Mawhinney

Monday 3rd March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 13 of the noble Lords, Lord Roberts of Llandudno and Lord Ramsbotham. The trouble is that paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 widens the authorisation under which immigration officers can use “reasonable force” to cover all their powers in all immigration Acts, rather than just the specific powers of arrest, search and entry given in the 1971 and 1999 Acts. Such blanket permission for something as indefinable as “reasonable force”, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, illustrated, is pretty unwise.

Surely it is important that any extension of use of force by agents of the state is justified in detail, rather than in this sweeping manner. For example, the use of force against pregnant women or children in a variety of contexts is problematic. I support Amendment 13 and hope that it will go in the direction of the definition given by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, of what could be included in the Bill about what we mean by the rather blanket word, “reasonable”. What is reasonable to me may be completely unreasonable to another person, unless it is defined.

[Lord Mawhinney (Con)]

My Lords, I will not take up much of your Lordships’ time because what I had wanted to say was said much better by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. In my reading of Schedule 1, I noted the words:

“The power to search … may be exercised only to the extent reasonably required”.

I do not know what “reasonably required” means; I do not know what “reasonably” means, and I do not know what “required” means. By whom is the power to be used and against what standard? I say to my noble friend on the Front Bench, who knows that I am supportive of this legislation, that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has done your Lordships’ House a favour by enabling this short debate to take place. I hope that my noble friend will listen to the variety of views that reflect a similar theme on all sides of the House, and perhaps at a later stage come back with something that is slightly more definitive in relation to “reasonably required”.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Sentamu and Lord Mawhinney

Monday 14th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Archbishop of York]

Call me whatever you like.

[Lord Mawhinney]

I am a just a simple Belfast boy. Archbishop of York seems pretty good to me; most of the clergy I know can only fantasise.

The timing of this debate is important in that it reinforces the message that my noble friend got the last time this was debated in this Chamber. I hope that he will tell those who tabled the amendments that they are premature. If he does, he will need to tell them that he will take away the contents of this debate and the previous one and bring back, in whatever way the Government think is appropriate, a means to attach the principle of education and training to this Bill. He knows that I hope that he will do that, but I hope that he is encouraged that I share the views expressed that this is not yet the time.

The noble Lord, Lord Owen, has addressed particularly well the element of perplexity and perhaps confusion in the NHS about the Government’s intention. My noble friend and his colleagues keep going on about the Future Forum. I am sure that it is doing a fine job, and no word of criticism about it will cross my lips—except to say, as a simple Belfast boy, that in a democracy it seems to me that the role of this House is to try to persuade Ministers; it is not its role to try to persuade those who are going to try to persuade Ministers. The Future Forum may have an important role, but I would like us to discharge our role quite clearly. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, has the experience of having served in Cabinet, and I have been extremely fortunate and blessed to have had a similar experience. If my noble friend or the Secretary of State can go to the Dispatch Box and say, “I undertake that there will be legislation”, and specify the Session, we will all believe him. However, if that is not possible, it adds to the importance of bringing forward at least the principle to get this issue into this Bill.

Those of us who are in favour of education and training but want to support the Government are not entirely clear whether we should be tempted by Amendments 47A, 47B or 133, and I have to say to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that I am not tempted by her Amendment 199A. But at some point this House has to make a decision, so I hope that my noble friend will stand up, look the noble Lords who tabled these amendments in the eye and say, “Thank you, it’s been very helpful and I’ve heard what you’ve said. I’ll take it away and I’ll bring something back on Report, which I hope will satisfy the whole House”. In the mean time, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.