Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Tunnicliffe

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, this amendment is concerned with the regulation of commercial debt management services. It explores the extent to which firms that supply debt management services on commercial terms, or on terms that otherwise might cause consumer detriment, can be subject to specific rules or sanctions.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, cannot be here but I well understand his concerns about the commercial debt management sector. However, it is worth saying in his absence, because we have touched on these things with him before, that he does an excellent job as chairman of StepChange, the debt advice charity which also provides not-for-profit debt management services. I share many of his concerns as they are reflected in the presentation of the amendment by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe.

Unscrupulous practices in the sector can cause real harm to vulnerable consumers struggling with debt problems—precisely those who desperately need help. However, I do not agree that the FCA should take action against commercial debt management companies just because they are offering these services on a commercial basis. The Government believe that it is important that consumers have access to debt management services to help them manage their debts where this is the right solution for them. But the Government also hold firm to the principle that consumers should have the choice to pay for these services if they wish to. They also acknowledge that there is a risk that not-for-profit debt advice and debt management providers may not be able to satisfy all the demand in the market.

In that context, I would like to highlight the important role of the Money Advice Service in signposting consumers to high quality, free-to-client debt advice services and in taking a strong strategic role in working with other organisations that provide debt advice to ensure that the market works effectively to help consumers struggling with debts. In April this year, the Money Advice Service took responsibility for the funding and management of face-to-face debt advice projects from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and thus ensured the continuation of an important service which is currently on target to help around 150,000 people with debt problems this year.

Money advice and debt advice are, of course, two sides of the same coin. Promotion of financial capability and better money management will prevent people from getting into problem debt, while high-quality debt advice will ensure that those who find themselves with unmanageable debt are able to access appropriate specialist debt advice. In addition to funding and managing face-to-face services, the Money Advice Service has an important role in working with other organisations that provide debt services, in order to improve the availability, quality and consistency of the service available. The expectation is therefore that the Money Advice Service will continue to work with stakeholders such as StepChange, Citizens Advice, the Money Advice Trust and others to improve the long-term quality and effectiveness of the advice available. This will result in a more consistent sector, where there is agreement on what constitutes a full and effective debt advice service. This is clearly a challenging role for the Money Advice Service to undertake, and effective dialogue with its stakeholders and proper accountability will be key. So I encourage stakeholders in the sector to work with the service and to engage with its debt advice forum and the consultation on its business plan in the new year.

I, and the Government, entirely support the intent behind the amendment to ensure that the commercial debt management sector is subject to stronger supervision, more robust requirements and more stringent sanctions than is currently the case. The transfer of debt management company regulation from the OFT to the FCA will mark a significant shift in approach and powers. The FCA’s consumer protection objective will give it a strong mandate to take effective action to ensure that vulnerable consumers are protected from rogue debt management firms. That enables it to take action in the area of fees, if it believes that that is necessary and appropriate. With that, I hope that the noble Lord has the reassurances he seeks and feels able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, for his remarks. I, too, am very sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, is not here; he is not only our expert on debt advice services but, apparently, our expert on the wreck of the “HMS Victory”, sunk in 1744, and he is participating in a debate in the Moses Room.

I hear what the Minister says. He goes quite a long way towards what we are seeking to achieve with the amendment. Ideally, we would like it in the Bill, but with his assurances I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Tunnicliffe

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I spent some years sitting on the Benches opposite facing the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and it comes as a refreshing new experience to find myself so frequently in agreement with her on this Bill. I am sure that will distress her as much as it is distressing me. Unfortunately, her caveating remarks are every bit as important as the lead remarks recommending the amendment.

We would not be able to support the amendment as drafted because, as she rightly points out, it could involve a direction to the MPC. This part of the Bill is a limiting list. The noble Baroness may want to consider either extending the list—we would look at that with great interest—or reversing it and extending the powers to the whole of the activity as her present amendment does and then caveating it with a number of areas where this power could not be used. This is a very useful amendment to develop the debate. I look forward to the Minister’s reply and thank the noble Baroness for proposing it.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, first let me be clear that I do not believe that it would be appropriate to extend the scope of the power in the way that is suggested by this amendment. It would make the power unusable. I was going to remind my noble friend, but she already made the point, that the Treasury already has a very broad power of direction over the Bank. As my noble friend pointed out, Section 4 of the Bank of England Act 1946, which continues and will continue to be operative, as my noble friend says, allows the Treasury to,

“give such directions to the Bank as ... they”,

the Treasury,

“think necessary in the public interest, except in relation to monetary policy”.

I think we are all agreed that the amendment was not intended to cover monetary policy.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

Does the noble Lord agree that every Committee that has looked at this and reported and all professional commentators take the view that the power is so wide and so nuclear that no Chancellor would ever use it?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, is getting ahead of me. That was precisely what I was going on to explain. He is absolutely right that the power has never been used. Even at the height of the recent financial crisis, the then Chancellor felt unable to use this power to direct the Bank. Indeed, Alistair Darling’s book is rather interesting on this point. He explains in it that he was told,

“that it might be legally possible”,

to direct the Bank, but that,

“there would be wider implications of such an action. We had set great store by making the Bank independent and a public row between myself and Mervyn would have been disastrous, particularly at this time”.

The 1946 Act direction power is considered, and was considered by a Chancellor very recently, to be such a nuclear option because it is so broad that it would be very difficult to use. This means that any use of the power would likely be interpreted as the Chancellor overruling decisions and judgments that should rightly be for the Bank. This would be seen as a direct challenge to the Bank’s independence and a judgment on the competence of the Bank’s senior executives, which could cause a crisis in leadership in the Bank and a serious loss of public confidence. That line of thinking has prevented Chancellors from using the 1946 Act power in the past, as the fallout could be more damaging than the situation that they might be trying directly to address.

That risk was recognised by the Treasury Committee. That is why their report recommended that,

“the Chancellor should be granted a power to direct the Bank in a crisis which is free of the problems associated with the power under the 1946 Act”.

That is why the new power of direction in Clause 57 is designed to be a targeted and usable power. There will still be the power in the 1946 Act, for the reasons that underlie what my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said. It is probably worth maintaining that reserve power somewhere in the system, albeit with the caveat that it is difficult to see the situation in which it might be exercised.

On the other hand, and going to the heart of who is in charge and who is responsible for what is in the new system, it was muddled and confused under the tripartite system but we want to make it much clearer in the new system that the Chancellor and the Treasury are principally there as guardians of public funds. That is why the specific direction in Clause 57 is designed that way. It is targeted. It does not allow the Treasury to overrule the Bank’s decisions and judgments; it allows the Treasury to take the decisions that are rightly for the Government to take. It is designed to allow the Chancellor to intervene to require the Bank to take specific action in a crisis management situation where public funds are at risk. That is why the power covers only the Bank’s crisis management functions, specifically the provision of liquidity and the operation of the special resolution regime. Again, I hope that that helps the noble Lord, Lord Peston, with the intended scope of this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, the intention behind this amendment is twofold. It is to bring more players into the decision about an early notification and to bring in the requirement for early notification. Touching first on bringing new bodies into this, the clause effectively brings the FPC, the FCA and the PRA into the early notification procedure advocated in this clause. The essence of our concern has been rehearsed around the House. It is that the Bill gives enormous power to the Governor of the Bank of England and, in a crisis, he effectively ends up as the gatekeeper of information flowing from the Bank to the Government. We believe that there should be ways of making this gate wider and that where the FCA and the PRA—I shall talk about the FPC in the next amendment—believe that an early warning is required, they should have a duty to consider the circumstances; and where they believe that it makes sense, they should have a duty to communicate that to the Treasury or the Secretary of State. This would clearly require them, as part of their function, to be proactive in their stance when they are horizon-scanning or looking forward at various risks.

The second part of the amendment is about the essence of an early warning. The concept of an early warning is that it is a warning short of a formal notice. The amendment lowers the bar from the form of words in the Bill that implies the “probability” of a material risk or the requirement of the use of public funds to the “possibility”. It echoes the concerns of the Treasury Select Committee in its 21st report which was published on 8 November 2012. Its recommendation at paragraph 166 was:

“We are concerned that the formal notification of a material risk to public funds may still not give the Chancellor enough time to consider other policy options. The Treasury needs to know as early as reasonably possible when it might receive a notification. We therefore recommend that the forthcoming legislation also require the Bank to give the Chancellor an early warning of the possibility that a notification of a material risk to public funds may need to be given, and full information about the circumstances”.

We very much agree with that recommendation and in this amendment we seek to give effect to it.

The process of crisis that we are debating will probably involve protecting the activation of the proactive intervention framework. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, knows what I am talking about because she is familiar with the document, The Bank of England, Prudential Regulation Authority: Our Approach to Banking Supervision, published in May 2011. The PIF is described on page 18. It describes five stages of escalation, which presumably are the key stages that lead up to a crisis. There is almost a presumption that there is a clear difference between normal business and a crisis. I hope it never happens, but if it did, it would be an escalating situation. Some of the stages of the proactive intervention framework will be in private. Some will not want to be the subject of a notice, as the final notification as envisaged in the Bill should be. The ability and duty of the Bank to give a notice of possibility would allow those private activities, in the early stages of the PIF, to take place, alerting the Government that they have to start thinking about the possibilities and how they may develop.

The counterargument often revolves around the fact that the Chancellor and the Governor of the Bank of England talk to each other. Of course, at the moment we have two most charming individuals and I am sure that they have useful conversations. However, once again, if you go into the evidence of the Select Committee and its comments, clearly this has not always been true. I am rather sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, is not in his place so that he could reflect on the events of 1984 when he had to find a great deal of money to save a failing bank and, according to the Select Committee, was advised of that requirement on the morning of the crisis. Equally, one cannot read Alistair Darling’s book without a clear feeling that the day-to-day communication between the Governor of the Bank of England and the Chancellor was less than warm. Certainly, it was not enough to leave one comfortable that the necessary preliminary warning that this amendment envisages would take place at an informal level.

As this crisis gathers, one has to presume a situation that relationships could really be quite bad. They could be in seven years’ time. The new governor might turn out to be less charming than the present one. The Chancellor of the day could well be less charming and communicative than the present one. In fact, there could have been a total breakdown of trust between them. It has happened in the past. This amendment would require a preliminary notice and there would be a dereliction of duty if the Government did not provide this preliminary notice. This mechanism would allow the Government to start their preliminary thinking and consider mitigation measures other than the expenditure of public money—as envisaged in the Bill —and give the lead times necessary. Crucial is a situation of no surprise. We are very uncomfortable about the sense behind some of the remarks, and the extent to which the governor is the gatekeeper of information to the Government. We believe the Government should be equally sensitive and concerned and I commend the amendment to the them.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am genuinely puzzled about this amendment. I know that it was put forward in another place by Mr Leslie, the colleague of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and that it is designed to implement a Treasury Select Committee recommendation to create an early-warning mechanism of a risk to public funds. No one would be keener than me to have such a mechanism in place if I believed that it was necessary because I thought that the Treasury would not, under the provisions of this Bill, get sufficient early warning.

However, this provision and the question of an early warning do not rely on what I think we all agree is very important; namely, that there is constant dialogue about a whole range of things between the Treasury and the authorities, including the Bank. The question of an early warning does not rely on that, although we would expect it to carry on because it is working well at the moment.

I believe that the amendment is unnecessary and inappropriate. Therefore, let me carefully go through why. First, as the Government made clear in their response to the Treasury Select Committee, the duty on the Bank to notify the Treasury of risks to public funds already achieves this aim. The existing duty is already designed to give the Treasury an early warning of a potential risk to public funds. That is because Clause 54 sets an extremely low bar for notification; for example, when the Bank or the PRA looks at the position of a firm or a group of firms, if it thinks that a possible future scenario could lead to a situation in which the Treasury might reasonably be expected to decide to use public money to protect stability or the public interest, a notification must be made.

I do not think that the bar could be set much lower than that. For example, in the type of scenario described by the noble Lord, where the Bank is aware that at some point in the future a risk to public funds could arise, the Bank should be making a notification of a risk to public funds under the existing duty in Clause 54. I am happy to put that on the public record again. The Bank completely accepts that and there is no debate about the interpretation of the duty under Clause 54.

With this amendment, the noble Lord also risks undermining the clarity and force of the statutory duty to notify the Chancellor of risks to public funds by broadening the grounds on which it could be triggered to include risks to the FCA’s objectives which do not involve public money. Just as in the previous debate we were talking about issues which related to the line between risk to public money and other matters, again, in relation to this particular early warning, the duty is drafted very deliberately with the line drawn, which is not reflected in the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I feel that the words used by the Minister are quite a shift. He referred to a “possible future scenario”. As I read Clause 54, it is much closer to a probable future scenario. Will he explain to me—I am sure that he is much more familiar with the Bill than I am, much as I have tried to study it in the past few days—where in statute I can draw the comfort that a possible very low bar to notification is emphasised.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the fact is that a regulator would have to look at future scenarios when it is thinking of its duty under Clause 54. The clause refers not to a situation that has arisen but to,

“a material risk of circumstances”,

which links it, as I have said, to the provision of financial assistance. It is clear and simple. There is a lot of other stuff in Clause 54(1), but the key things are,

“that there is a material risk of circumstances within any of the following cases”,

which are then explained in detail. As understood by the Government and the Bank, this is a forward-looking statement and requirement, which obliges them to think about possible future scenarios that could lead to the situations that are then developed in Clause 54. Of course, the duty in Clause 55 is to notify any changes to that.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I think that some of what the Minister has just said is quite a shift from what Clause 54 says. I would be delighted if he came forward on Report with some amendments that contained a duty to look at scenarios and a duty to bring forward a notification at the point of a possibility. There has been considerable debate in another place and in various committees, as to what “a material risk” means. There is a commitment in Clause 61 that it must be in the MoU, but as I search the MoU I cannot find it coming readily out to me—I shall be asking about that later. I invite the Minister to consider what he has said and see whether he can improve the legislation so that there will be no ambiguity about the test that the Bank has to apply in bringing forward a notification.

[Lord Peston]

My Lords, perhaps I can help the Minister—it is not a question of persuading him to say yes or no at the moment. Looking at Clause 54, I take “material risk” to mean a significant probability; “possible” is much less than that. I think that my noble friend suggests in his amendment that Clause 54 would be strengthened if we went down the “possible” line, the technical point being—and I do not press it—that there is deep philosophical argument, particularly within probability theory, about the difference between possible and probable.

I interpret the amendment to mean that if the relevant body—whether the Bank of England or another regulator—is looking at a specific part of the financial services sector, or even a specific firm within it, it should let the Government know that it is doing so and that one definitely possible outcome is a need for the use of public funds. The amendment, as I understand it, is simply an attempt to be helpful to HMG when it comes to the control of public money. The Minister may say, “We do not want to know about possibles; we only want to know when the real demand for the money is coming”. That may be his argument, but that is the difference—am I not right?—as to what we are talking about here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, there are some points where, frankly, I have to take the advice of the legal experts here, which I have done. Frequently Bills, this one included, contain constructions which follow some sort of drafting formula and are sometimes difficult to understand. As I say, my starting point is that if I really thought that the Treasury was not going to get the sort of early warning which the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and the Treasury Committee rightly ask for, I would propose a government amendment. I take the point that “possible” appears in a heading and not in Clause 54(1) but it is very clear from the heading that we are talking about the material risk in the context of the possible need for public funds. I assure the Committee that all the advice that I have been given is to the effect that this will achieve the purpose that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, desires. Finally, I draw the noble Lord’s attention to paragraph 13 of the draft MoU to find the interaction between the MoU and these issues. On the basis of those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, this has been a useful debate. However, members of the Treasury Committee are concerned that there is confusion about material risk. We will come to the extent to which the MoU does or does not define that. I believe that a Prime Minister once said, “Circumstances, old boy, circumstances”. As I said, I am happy to accept the Minister’s assurance that the legislation will work under the present charming governor and charming Chancellor, but it needs to be future proof. The words that the Minister used in connection with this important point were reassuring but they need to be in the Bill if they are to persist beyond the tenure of the present Government. I hope that he will consider bringing forward an amendment to achieve that. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Tunnicliffe

Monday 15th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I will not take up the time of the House with detailed comments on the amendment. We have listened to the debate, and all noble Lords who spoke were most persuasive. I hope that the Minister will give careful consideration to their points. We will certainly listen with great care as we decide on the extent to which we may support the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, if she plans to take the matter further.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the question of the audit of banks is indeed an important one, and one which has recurred in policy debates over the past 20 years. I looked back to see what the Banking Act 1987 had to say on the topic and what Lord Justice Bingham had to say when he looked into the BCCI collapse. Various changes were made at that time and since in FiSMA but it is important that we learn lessons from the recent banking disasters, and I address the particularities of this amendment from a position of agreeing with the considerable concern around this issue. However, I do not believe that the amendment before us completely achieves what we are trying to do.

Clearly auditors are uniquely placed to identify and flag to the PRA current and potential risks in a firm. We would also expect the PRA to share relevant information with auditors, for example where it views a firm’s approach to asset valuation or provisioning to be significantly out of line with its peers. It is worth pointing out that there are areas in which the present regulator, the FSA, believes that auditors should be looking at particular issues and reporting on them and it can require that to be done in rules under Part 22 of FiSMA. So, for example, under the client asset rules, auditors are required to report on whether investment firms have properly segregated their client assets.

I do however have some difficulty with this particular amendment. My noble friend Lady Wheatcroft says that if only provision like this had been in place before or at the time of the crisis the auditors might have given a lot more help which might have prevented some of the disasters. On the other hand my noble friend Lord Lawson of Blaby quotes from your Lordships’ committee’s report which talks of the complacency of bank auditors at the time. Taking as read for the moment that the complacency thesis is the right one, I wonder if that complacency would have run through what was required to be done under a particular provision like this one in the amendment. I think that we are on to something important here but I am not convinced that this quite hits the sweet spot that the Committee is aiming for and that requiring auditors to provide this general narrative report will achieve what we want. Risk assessment is a highly-specialised process and it goes to the heart of the job of the prudential regulator. What I think we want of auditors is to see if there is something more that they can do which supports the prudential judgment rather than cuts across it.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Tunnicliffe

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I agree with all the points that my noble friend Lord Whitty has made and I will not rehearse them. Coming at the whole thing from a slightly different direction, it seems to me that Clause 25 is highly admirable. It seems to say that if you have an authorised person and that authorised person is owned by someone else, the regulator must be able to get at the someone else. It is a sensible clause in that it uses terms such as,

“may have a material adverse effect on the regulation by the regulator”.

It uses that twice, in both of the conditions in which it can happen. It is a very narrow clause. It is what we who like regulation find very good at setting out what the regulator may do.

Clause 25 also says that a regulator must adhere,

“to the principle that a burden or restriction which is imposed on a person should be proportionate to the benefits, considered in general terms, which are expected to result from its imposition”.

So the whole idea that the owner of a regulated person should come under regulation seems entirely a sign of good principle, and has proper safeguards set against it.

However, for the life of me I cannot understand what new Section 192B(4) is doing there. It states:

“Condition C is that the parent undertaking is a financial institution of a kind prescribed by the Treasury by order”.

Any owner of an authorised person should be susceptible to regulation within the limitations set out in Clause 25. This was debated in the Commons, but we make no apology for bringing it back here. In the Commons, Mr Hoban said:

“This is a proportionate expansion. We want to avoid the sense that the FCA or the PRA could intervene in the price of bread at Tesco or Sainsbury’s”.—[Official Report, Commons, Financial Services Bill Committee, 8/3/12; col. 466.]

That is an absolutely ridiculous reason to deny it. Clearly, the body of this clause says that it shall be used for serious material things in a proportionate way, which could have nothing to do with the price of bread at Sainsbury’s. I hope that the Minister will give a really full explanation of why this clause should not apply universally to all owners of authorised persons, not just to those as set out in condition C in subsection (4) of new Section 192B.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Tunnicliffe, have been very clear about the purpose of these three amendments: that they seek to extend the power to capture all parent undertakings, including non-financial parents. The starting point here has to be the recognition, which was partly given by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, that we are talking about some new and important powers that go significantly beyond anything that the previous Government put in place in their architecture.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said that he approved of a lot of this. The fact is that we are moving the boundary forward very significantly, but to an appropriate place for the time being, while nevertheless taking the power—the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, recognised this—to move the boundary further if appropriate. I would have been rather happier if there had been more of a tone of approving of and recognising a significant shift, and gently encouraging us onwards, rather than a tone of outraged incomprehension that we have not moved very much further.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

If I can help the Minister, I am entirely happy to welcome this clause—my opening remarks welcomed it—but I cannot understand why it has this serious limitation. The rest of the clause is beautifully balanced and seems entirely appropriate. Why does it not apply to more owners?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, we are getting into significant new territory here. These are untried and untested powers in the United Kingdom. We want to make sure that they are targeted and used in a proportionate manner. That is why the Government have proposed limiting the powers to parent undertakings that are financial institutions of the kind described by the Treasury, which helps to keep this new and very significant power within acceptable bounds—and bounds within which Parliament can be clear about the movement of the regulatory boundary. I take the case of the supermarkets because they are an important area and the clearest case of where the boundary should be under focus. It is important and helpful for noble Lords to raise this matter in debate now, because it is quite proper that as experience of these new powers is gained and the evolution in the structures of holding companies for financial services institutions moves forward, these matters are kept under some form of scrutiny.

Let me deal first of all with the specific matter of data sharing, because this is a granular thing that affects customers in these groups now. The Data Protection Act 1998 already provides robust safeguards around the disclosure of customers’ personal information, including disclosure to another group company. Therefore, in the case which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, postulates, the movement of data from one part of a group—the non-financial part—to the financial part will require consent from the consumer.

The Act also requires that the personal data have been obtained fairly from the customer in the first place, which would involve identifying any third parties to which the information would be disclosed. We believe that the current provisions in the Bill—in that specific respect and more broadly—strike the right balance between giving the regulator more intrusive powers over unregulated parent undertakings, protecting the personal data of consumers and ensuring that the net regulatory burden imposed on industry is proportionate.

However—and I restate this—the Government are very much alive to the concerns raised by noble Lords, and it is precisely for that reason that they have taken a power to remove the requirement that the parent undertaking be a financial institution. We have not put that in there unthinkingly; we have put it in there because we recognise the concerns that noble Lords have raised. I am sorry if the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, does not think that I have recognised the positivity with which he has come at this clause, but he does not perhaps recognise or give enough weight to the fact that we really are making a significant step forward and need to pause and think carefully before going further. The power, however, is there and the Government will use that power as and when it becomes clear that the balance needs to be struck differently. I am happy to restate that, so I hope that what I have said will reassure noble Lords that the Government take this matter very seriously.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Tunnicliffe

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am infinitely flexible; it depends how long we go on this evening but I can see one or two amendments coming up on which I can be more accommodating than I will be on this one.

I shall start with perhaps the easiest part: the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, around Amendment 111A. I am delighted to see the noble Lord joining the fray. We have now had four players on the Front Bench from the Opposition; I wish that we had such depth of reserves on our side. However, I will battle on.

Amendment 111A seeks to bring the activities of market makers into the scope of the FCA’s competition objective. I reassure the noble Lord and the Committee that the activities of market makers are already very much covered by the objective. Put very simply, to operate as a market maker firms will have to obtain permission to deal in investments as principal, and that is a regulated activity. That means that such firms are performing a regulated activity or a regulated service, and noble Lords will see that new Section 1A(1)(e) clearly states that markets for regulated financial services fall within the scope of the FCA’s objective, so the FCA can indeed shine its regulatory light on market makers as on any other part of the sector. For completeness and to clarify, as far as recognised investment exchanges or RIEs are concerned, they can be exempt from the general prohibition under Section 285(2) of FiSMA, but even their activities are brought within the scope of the competition objective by virtue of subsection (1)(b) of new Section 1E in the Bill. I hope that that deals with that.

Turning to Amendment 112, competition can mean many things to many people. To indicate what the Government might want the FCA to look at in deciding how to advance its competition objective, subsection (2) of new Section 1E sets out a number of matters to which the FCA may have regard in assessing the effectiveness of competition in a given market. It is an indicative and, importantly, a non-exhaustive list. The FCA cannot dodge or duck out of its overall competition objective. Had we not put the non-exhaustive list of examples down there we might not be expressing the concern that we have. There would be the simple competition objective and that would be that.

Given the list, let me explain a bit more why there is danger in changing “may” to “must”. That would mean that the FCA would always have to consider all the issues set out in new subsection (2). The FCA should not necessarily have regard to all of that list when looking at particular competition questions. There could be unintended consequences.

If the FCA wishes to take action to promote switching, the consideration of barriers to entry will not be as important as the ease with which consumers can transition between providers and how that is affected by the structures of the market or behaviours of incumbents. To enable the FCA to generate the outcomes that we want under the competition objective it is important that the list is expressed in the terms that it is. This does not make the basic objective of the FCA weaker in this area. It just means that we need to give it a degree of discretion to be able to target the particular issues that they are looking at at any one time.

That addresses the amendments that are being spoken to and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, will consider not pressing his amendment.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I am sorry that the Minister did not rise to my invitation to wax a little lyrical over his commitment to consumer interest, but at this late hour I do not now invite him to. I am sorry too that he was not able to see the attraction of “must”. I have laboured on such ventures and I know the ferocity with which one’s brief has said that one must never move from “may” to “must”. Many of us would have been more satisfied if the Minister had accepted “must”, and we will have to see whether my noble friend Lord McFall brings this back later for further consideration.

I thank the Minister for his straightforward assurances on Amendment 111A and I beg leave to withdraw.

Open-Ended Investment Companies (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Tunnicliffe

Monday 12th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, this is a fascinating example of the industry asking for regulation that the FSA seems to have been slow to introduce. This is an almost unique experience for the sector, which is normally grumbling that there is too much regulation.

I am intrigued that it is being introduced here purely under domestic legislation rather than within the ambit of any EU cover, and I wonder whether there is any prospect of OEICs, in this regard, being the subject of any of the many EU directives that are currently on their way down the track or being discussed. I note that, at the moment, the jurisdictions that already have this additional regulation are a mixed bag and include Jersey, Ireland and Luxembourg. I find it slightly surprising that it has taken some time for both the UK industry and the Government to get round to implementing this legislation, given that its benefit is that it will improve the competitive position of OEICs in the UK. It seems extremely sensible. I want to confirm what I think the Minister said: that there is no suggestion that this is being introduced because there has been any difficulty with any existing OEICs. Is it purely as a pro-competitive rather than as an anti-competitive measure?

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I make it clear from the outset that we support this order. I am looking forward to the Minister’s answer to the noble Lord’s questions about how the regulations fit in with the EU—questions which are particularly apposite at this moment. I will content myself with a few comments on the impact assessment and two or three questions.

The impact assessment is absolutely fascinating. From my reading of it—and I am happy to be corrected here—the net benefit of the regulations will be between £18 million and £360 million, which is a pretty wide range that will involve lots of sums to prove that. The only point that I feel I can take from the impact assessment is that, in all credible scenarios, the introduction of a protected cell regime will be favourable, and I think that we can all be satisfied with that.

I have just a few questions. First, new Regulation 11A(4) provides for an exception, which is referred to in the Explanatory Note. However, for myself I cannot quite see what sorts of transactions or assets the exception refers to. Like all exceptions, one is always slightly worried that the exception ends up negating the intent of the order. I am sure that it does not, but I pose that question for assurance.

Secondly, as I understand it—once again, I could be wrong—there will be a period in which PCR products and non-PCR products will be on sale at the same time. I may have misunderstood that, but if I am right in that assumption, what actions are the Government taking to ensure that there is no confusion in the marketplace during that period of overlap? I will be happy if there is no period of overlap, but if there is one then it is important that we do not introduce confusion through these very sensible regulations.

Finally, I like reading impact assessments, which is a little burden that I have to carry. The wonderful thing about impact assessments is that I always sense that they are written by rather more junior people— I was going to say with rather less care, but care is perhaps the wrong term—as you get that little hint from things. On page 10, the impact assessment states:

“The UK fund regime has been viewed as less favourable by managers and investors for a number of reasons, with the lack of a PCR being one of them”.

Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us as to what other reasons exist and what, if anything, he is doing about them.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, again those questions were short, sharp and to the point. Let me go straight to trying to answer them.

First, my noble friend Lord Newby asked about the interaction with Europe and what else is coming from Europe. The main thing that I see is an up-side opportunity in the link to the UCITS directive and the push to make sure that UK and other fund managers are able to sell products safely on a pan-European basis. I am not aware of any particular threats, but I am aware that, given the ongoing work that is looking again at the UCITS directive, there is further opportunity to complete the single market. UCITS 4 has just been implemented, and the UCITS 5 proposals that are expected from the Commission in 2012 are likely to include consumer protection measures on, for example, the use of depositories, so these regulations are part of a piece. As my noble friend said, these regulations are certainly pro-competitive but, as I touched on in my opening remarks, they also act to protect investors—they work for both the provider and the user of these products. Just to be absolutely clear, the regulations are being introduced not as a reaction to some disaster or something having gone wrong but because there is an untidiness and lack of clarity that we should tidy up ahead of the game.

I will answer the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. First, on new Regulation 11A(4), this refers to assets and liabilities which belong to the sub-funds; they do not belong to the umbrella company but have been billed to it for practical or legal reasons. They then have to be pushed down to the sub-funds. For example, there are certain generic costs such as Companies House fees and VAT for which the umbrella company, as the only entity with legal personality, is responsible but then needs to attribute to the sub-funds. It is put in there not as a means of driving a coach and horses through; it is there to deal with appropriate liabilities in particular, which have to be allocated down below the umbrella.

There was then a question about the transition period. The Government certainly recognise the importance of clarity for consumers. This is one reason why the protected cell regime will become mandatory after the transition period. In that transition period, the FSA rules require OEICs that are unprotected to make this clear in their prospectuses. Once an OEIC has converted, it will declare that it is protected. The FSA considers this approach to be proportionate and appropriate, given the low risks involved.

Lastly, there was a question about the impact assessment and the comment on page 10 about the UK regime being “viewed as less favourable”. Incidentally, this was not an impact assessment that I signed off myself so I had the pleasure of reading it afterwards. I am sure that when the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, mentioned junior people signing it off, he was referring not to my honourable friend the Financial Secretary or the officials who draft these things but to the authorship. The authorship is every bit as expert as is needed. It is great, anyway, to know that some people read the fine print. This is a long preamble to answering the noble Lord’s question.

The other major reasons why people might see the UK regime as less favourable concern perceived tax treatment of funds. The Government are taking steps to address this. For example, only last week the Government announced that they intend to improve the operation of the tax regime for property-authorised investment funds. This will mean that under some circumstances, investors may exchange their units in a dedicated PAIF feeder fund for units in the PAIFs, and vice versa, without incurring a charge to tax on capital gains at the time of exchange. This was a specific response to industry representations and will improve the competitiveness of the UK funds regime. We are responsive to other issues out there, which are generally around taxation.

I hope that that deals with the Committee’s questions. This is legislation that strengthens investor protection in a way that brings considerable benefits to the competitiveness of the UK as a domicile of funds. I therefore commend these regulations to the Committee.

Taxation of Equitable Life (Payments) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Tunnicliffe

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for his concise overview of the position and for introducing the order. We support the action that the Government have taken on this whole issue, and we accept that, although we may have different views about the approaches taken, speed is of the essence and the order should go through. We know that during the passage of the primary legislation there was some debate on the quantum, but ultimately Governments are in the business of making decisions and we recognise the decision to set the payment scheme at £1.5 billion.

In the original debate there was some concern about the allocation to the group of with-profits annuitants. The general principle that they should be protected against the comparison at 100 per cent was consensual. However, as my noble friend Lord McKenzie said in the debate:

“If relative loss is calculated on a gross-of-tax basis and the post-1992 with-profit annuitants are kept whole on this basis, will not the tax exemption go further than full reimbursement?”.—[Official Report, 24/11/10; col. 1152.]

I accept the case that has been made for simplicity but, in terms of the balance between the two pots, are the Government comfortable that this has not created an anomaly between the with-profits group and the non-with-profits group?

I join the noble Lord in seeking further information on the progress of payments but, aside from that question and perhaps the matter of an enhanced progress report, we support the order.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, first, I thank my noble friend Lord Newby and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for their helpful contributions to this short debate and for supporting the order. The making of the order is a crucial step towards making the first payments at the end of the month.

I shall address the questions that have been raised by my noble friend Lord Newby, followed up by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about how the timetable will unfold. As I said, the first payments will commence by the end of this month. It is then expected that payments to all traceable accumulating with-profits groups and conventional with-profits policyholders will be made over the first three years of the scheme. Payments to with-profits annuity policyholders for past losses will be spread over the first five years of the scheme, while annual payments for future losses will commence in year one and continue for the lifetime of the policyholders. All individual policyholders can expect to hear from the scheme in the first year—that is, by June 2012. As I think I said, for certain classes of policyholder closure of the process will be within three years; for others, five years; and for one class, as I identified, over their lifetime. I hope that that makes the position clear in respect of the several different classes of policyholder.

In response to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, on why tax relief is being granted on payments to with-profit annuitants who will have received 100 per cent of their losses covered by the scheme, losses for with-profit annuitants have been calculated on a gross basis. As I have just said, unlike other policyholders, those annuitants will receive their payments over time and we will not be paying any interest on those payments between the date of the calculation—December 2009—and the date of receipt. Disregarding the payments for tax will offset the effect of that payment schedule and the absence of any interest. It is important to note that these payments are in respect of losses that go back over nearly two decades and it would be an incredibly complex and burdensome task to work out what the tax positions for individuals would have been at the relevant time. As has been recognised, the scheme needs to be simple and not unduly complex. In recognition of that, we have decided to make the payments tax free. In the round, we do not believe that this will result in overpayment for with-profits annuitants, given the offset that I have identified.

Briefly, as regards reporting on the progress of the scheme—an issue that was briefly touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe—progress will be tracked and evaluated throughout the lifetime of the scheme, and I envisage that a number of reports will be produced, including in relation to the management of contracts, operations and risks. I am happy to give reassurance that the Government will give Parliament regular updates on the progress of the scheme.

We have come a long way in the past year to redressing the losses that Equitable Life policyholders have suffered over the past decade. Following the coming into effect of the order, a communications strategy is in place so that all recipients will be informed that their payments are to be tax free, and that they do not have to report them for tax purposes. In addition, HMRC helplines, and the staff at payment scheme call centres will be provided with lines to take so as to answer any questions on the tax treatment of these payments. I am grateful for the Committee’s support.