Shipping: Tax Revenue

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Prescott

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prescott]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government why, when they are able to provide estimated tax liabilities due to tonnage tax on British shipping, they are not able to supply figures for revenue received.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, estimated tonnage tax liabilities were provided using database information from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. This general approach is regularly used when answering questions on tax.

To construct reliable estimates of tax received would require HMRC checking each tax return, linking it with associated payments and estimating how much tax received related to tonnage tax. This exercise would be extremely time-consuming. However, revenues received will be broadly similar to those figures already given.

[Lord Prescott]

The Minister is aware that this is a successful tax. It increased the British fleet from 4 million tonnes to 18 million tonnes and that is an important factor. But I cannot accept his reply that he knows what the liability is and knows what the profits are but we cannot afford to find out what the tax liability and payments are because that would cost more, as he said in a letter to me, than a parliamentary reply. That is unacceptable. We are entitled to know.

However, I am more concerned about this tax.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Prescott]

The loss of the “Concordia” reminds us of the importance of having a captain and safe crew. The “Concordia” is owned by the American company that owns these ships. There are two standards on cruise liners, which is totally unacceptable.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not sure how I interpret that question, but I think the relevant bit relates to the original Question, which is to do with the numbers that I gave the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, in my Written Answer. I can assure him that it is standard practice to give numbers based on the liability in respect of years. That is done in innumerable Answers to Questions. The numbers in this case, as is normally the case, will be broadly reflective and close to the actual tax paid. It is simply that the tax paid gets paid at different times according to the individual circumstances of the company.

I am happy to recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, was Secretary of State for Transport and many other important things at the time that this important tax was introduced. Just to correct his figures, the gross tonnage of British shipping in 2000 was 5.8 million tonnes and, indeed, it has increased to 18.2 million tonnes since then.

Public Service Pensions

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Prescott

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prescott]

My Lords, having listened to the Minister claiming the support of the noble Lord, Lord Hutton—the architect of the scheme—for his interpretation, and then having listened to my noble friend Lord Eatwell give a different interpretation, I am all the more sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, is not here to give his interpretation. I wish to ask the Minister a question, as in 2008 I negotiated pension agreements with local government workers. That is a different pension scheme from the state one as it is funded by the employers and the employees. We made major changes in that pension agreement which I do not have time to explain. We did that with a struggle but we did not have the strikes that we have witnessed on this occasion. We have learnt that there is a heads of agreement with the unions, and we hope that they will move to some sort of agreement. The Minister mentioned this in his contribution. However, tonight we learn that another letter has been written by the Secretary of State for the Environment, Mr Pickles, who is well known as the rogue elephant in the Cabinet, which states that the limits to be placed on the employers’ contribution are quite different from what the Treasury is saying. Will the Minister say which letter is operating in these negotiations? I am told that the letter I have mentioned has been withdrawn. Is Mr Pickles in charge or the Treasury as regards the difference between the two schemes? Will the Minister explain that to us?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am happy to try to clear up any misunderstandings on this. As the DCLG has made clear this afternoon, it is in discussion with the unions to resolve any misunderstanding and reassure them that the intentions of the department and of the Government have not changed. It would seem that the unions have read more into the letter that was issued today than was intended by the DCLG. No new conditions are being imposed by the department. In order to iron out any ambiguity, the department will be issuing a new letter to make clear that there is no ambiguity, there is only one deal and there are no conditions. Therefore, I am confident that this can be resolved quickly, but as noble Lords will understand, there have been many deals with a lot of unions and several departments. We must clear up this ambiguity that has slipped in on one particular aspect.