Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Lamont of Lerwick

Monday 11th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am a little surprised by this discussion, not because I do not think it is an important debate but there have been one or two interventions from noble Lords who unfortunately were not here to hear this point addressed during the debate.

First, this was not a decision of mine. I will do whatever the House wants. I was not asked whether I wanted to do it one way or another and I see arguments for doing it either in Grand Committee or on the Floor of the House. This was discussed through the usual channels. I have not seen this sort of discussion in anything I have been involved in. I believe that the usual channels go through these things very carefully, and they came up with an agreement on this that I certainly am prepared to accept.

I also heard the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, who is not in his place at the moment, arguing during the debate that the Grand Committee was a better place to take this legislation. I think the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, referred to the detailed scrutiny of the Bill establishing the Office for Budget Responsibility, on which I had the pleasure and the responsibility of leading. Indeed, that Bill was given very thorough, detailed scrutiny. It was a Bill of great importance—not as big as this Bill but it showed in a related area how effective the Grand Committee can be.

The Welfare Reform Bill can hardly be said to have been an unimportant Bill. What Bill of greater importance has this House considered in the past two years? Everything I have heard suggests that the scrutiny it got in Grand Committee actually worked extremely well, notwithstanding the understandable doubts there were about it.

I do not want to withdraw the Motion. It has been agreed by the usual channels, in which all these matters will have been debated, and I believe that we should stick with what the usual channels have agreed.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords, I ask my noble friend to think again about this. This may have been agreed by the usual channels but it is not the usual channels that should entirely count on this; it is the will of the House. Almost all the people who have spoken in the debate are present now and a large number of them have expressed the view that this would be an unsatisfactory way of proceeding. The view has been put that this is comparable to the OBR. With great respect, I suggest that this is a much, much more important measure than the OBR.

Secondly, the Grand Committee is a much more restricted form of scrutiny in that you cannot actually vote on amendments; you cannot have a Division. I know that it is the practice of the House that we do not have too many Divisions in Committee on the Floor of the House. None the less, the pressure on Ministers to give a clear explanation to pointed amendments when there is a threat of a Division is much greater and it makes for a much sharper and more lucid Committee when there is the possibility of a Division. Just to have debates in which there are no Divisions and there are many more Divisions on Report does not seem the best and the most satisfactory way of proceeding. I strongly urge the Minister to reconsider.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The Minister has said that he personally does not mind whether the Bill is dealt with on the Floor of the House or in Grand Committee, which is very helpful. He founds his argument principally on an agreement through the usual channels—and I have great respect for the usual channels. However, I fear that, because of the recess, the usual channels may not have worked as efficiently and effectively as otherwise. If the Minister were to agree to withdraw the Motion, which would be preferable to a Division, we could have a few days to have further discussion and consultation. By that time, the groups will have met; the Cross-Benchers will have had an opportunity to meet; and we can consider this matter again. All we are doing is suggesting that this matter be postponed for three or four days.

Finance: Eurozone

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Lamont of Lerwick

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Government are not the least complacent about the very serious situation in the eurozone, as evidenced by not only the continuing discussions around the next stage of the programme for Greece but also the situation of Italy as regards the capital markets and its interest rates recently. The most constructive things we can do are, first, to make sure, as the FSA and the Bank of England are doing, that the UK banks are subjected to stringent stress tests; and secondly that they continue to build up, as they have done satisfactorily so far, their capital liquidity positions. In his discussions with the eurozone, my right honourable friend the Chancellor has made it quite clear how supportive the UK is not only of the short-term measures in which we are not directly involved—the Eurogroup discussions around Greece—but also through ensuring that Europe presses ahead with the structural adjustments that are needed to bring sustained growth to Europe. At the same time, we also make it abundantly clear that it is for the eurozone itself to finance further bailouts and that the UK, as has been agreed in the context of Greece, is not going to be a direct participant in these bailouts.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords, is it not clear, as the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has pointed out, that while we all obsess about Rupert Murdoch and News International, there is a much more serious crisis actually brewing on the European continent? Is it not clear that two paths are open to the eurozone? One is to recognise a default by Greece now; or if that is judged too risky to the banking sector, for the eurozone then to come up with what it has always promised, which is to do whatever is necessary to stop the bickering among the 17 Governments, to stop the arguments for the European Central Bank and to come up now with a comprehensive solution rather than delay it until the autumn, which will be immensely damaging to Italy and not least to other countries both inside and outside the eurozone?

[Lord Sassoon]

I certainly agree with my noble friend about the relative seriousness of different crises that are going on at the moment, and I repeat that the crisis in the eurozone is extremely serious. As to prescriptions and questions about what the eurozone would do, my noble friend speaks words of wisdom. However, it would not be appropriate for a UK government Minister to lecture the eurozone as to what to do. We shall look with considerable interest at what the meeting of eurozone leaders over the next two days comes up with. It is important that they make further considerable progress.

Greece: Default Contingency

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Lamont of Lerwick

Monday 20th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am not sure that I entirely accept my noble friend’s starting premise. The position is that Greece is a member of the eurozone, and the eurozone will continue to be the eurozone. We want to see the strengthening of fiscal and economic discipline within that zone. When the IMF put together and led the programme that Greece signed up to—which had elements of fiscal consolidation, structural fiscal reform and wider structural reform—it was done precisely in the context of Greece continuing to be a member of the eurozone, and that is the continuing position. The package has been put together and the new Government have some decisions to take. The IMF is coming up to its regular review before the next drawdown of the package, but that is entirely in the context of Greece being able to finance itself on an ongoing basis within the eurozone.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

Has my noble friend seen the extraordinary anti-German graffiti and the slogans being shouted by the crowds in Athens? Does that not illustrate what Professor Martin Feldstein, the Nobel prize-winning economist at Harvard, has always said—that the euro, far from bringing countries together, increases tensions between them? Can my noble friend also explain what sense there is in Ireland and Greece borrowing more money to lend to Portugal, and Ireland and Portugal borrowing more money to lend to Greece?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I have not been on the streets of Greece or seen what is going on in Athens, but clearly it is regrettable if anti-German sentiments are being expressed on the streets there. However, I have not been following the detail of the riots. The main thing is that we need to support the Greek Government and encourage them, as the eurozone Ministers have done in their statement today, to progress their package and enable the IMF to complete the upcoming assessment. As for the second-order effects of who needs capital where in order for loans to flow, my noble friend reinforces the point that this is a very interconnected system and the ongoing work on the short-term and medium-term stability of the eurozone has to be mindful—as we have been reminded already this evening—of the interconnectedness of the systems at every level.

EU: Financial and Monetary Co-ordination

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Lamont of Lerwick

Monday 6th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

I preface my answer by thanking the noble Lord and other noble Lords for their participation in the recent report of your Lordships’ European Union Committee on the future of economic governance in the EU, which provides an excellent commentary and analysis on these matters. The UK has submitted what we were required to submit as part of our national reform programme, and that will be the subject of the next round of debate along with all the other members of the EU 27. Critical to the whole construct and its various strands is ensuring that there is much greater transparency throughout the fiscal architecture. The UK will play its full part in ensuring that we not only contribute to getting the architecture right and submitting the data that are required but, equally, are clear that any budgetary information that we submit comes here to Parliament first and that we are not held to sanction, as are members of the eurozone.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

Does my noble friend agree that, as well as greater co-ordination, greater observation of the existing rules would also be welcome? Does he agree with the statement by Christine Lagarde, the French Finance Minister, that the first bail-out mechanism violated the rules of the EU treaties and, if so, that this would mean that Britain was dragged into supporting the euro by an illegal mechanism? Does he also agree that if the rules had been observed in the first place, Greece would never have joined the euro?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the Government have secured a very clear agreement with the European Council. Whatever the analysis of Article 122 has been in the past, the Council of Ministers has been completely clear that Article 122 will not be used in the future. That is the critical thing. It is probably not right to go on raking over decisions about who was not in the eurozone in the first place. We have to make it work now, and one way of doing that is to get a proper interpretation of all the relevant articles in the treaty.

European Financial Stability Mechanism

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Lamont of Lerwick

Thursday 12th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is widespread surprise that the original financial stability mechanism was allowed to be established under Article 122 of the European Union treaty, which deals with natural disasters such as earthquakes and floods, not sovereign defaults, and that that was done despite Article 125, which specifically prohibits sovereign debt bailouts? Although my noble friend is absolutely right that the new stability mechanism is to come into place, that requires unanimity. If that is not achieved, is it not possible that Britain may be dragged into bailing out not just Ireland, for which there was an argument, but Portugal and Greece? If those provisions of the treaty are going to go on being ignored, surely the only result will be more scepticism and cynicism about the way in which the EU operates.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, my noble friend embedded a number of questions in what was apparently one question. As to the use of the different articles, another key part of the agreement at the European Council in December 2010 was that Article 122 would unequivocally not be used in future for these purposes. Without going into the debate about whether Article 122 should ever have been used for this sort of operation, it will not be used in future—that is agreed. As to Article 125, that is used for loans for medium-term financing under things such as the balance of payments facility and quite other purposes, and that will continue. As to the UK’s participation, the new mechanism has been agreed by the Council. Its resolution is completely clear. A treaty amendment will bring in the new mechanism. That position could not be clearer. As to Portugal, my right honourable friend the Chancellor has made it completely clear that as the negotiations go forward to completion, the UK will not participate in any bilateral loan to Portugal. Ireland was a special case, and the same considerations do not apply in the case of Portugal.

Banks: Business Lending

Debate between Lord Sassoon and Lord Lamont of Lerwick

Wednesday 28th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, the first thing that we have to do is to recognise that the reason why both the Government and the banks were overleveraged, let alone investing in inappropriate products, was at heart a failure of regulation. So the first step that we have taken is to completely overhaul the financial regulatory system to make sure that banks do not get the country into the financial stability crisis that we inherited. The second thing that we have to do is to make sure that banks are enabled to rebuild their capital base so that they can have a secure capital base on which to lend to small and medium-sized businesses in particular. We have set out a range of measures on that, including in the Budget and the Green Paper earlier this week.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords—

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[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, as part of the absolute focus that the banks must have on growing loans to small and medium-sized enterprises, credit unions have an important part to play.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords—

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, is my noble friend not concerned that the massive increase in quantitative easing has not been reflected at all in the figures for the money supply, which has actually gone down? It is not surprising that the banks are not lending more if the money supply is declining. What does my noble friend think ought to be done about this?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I will be brief. I would say that the best indicator of the state of bank lending is to be found in the Bank of England’s July Trends in Lending document, which shows that in 2009 bank lending decreased by £45.6 billion and in January to May this year by £11.1 billion. I suggest that the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords—