Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Rowlands and Baroness Randerson

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord brings information from the front line, if I can put it that way, in far more detail than I could have provided to your Lordships. The noble Lords, Lord Rowlands and Lord Richard, asked detailed questions about the numbers of young people who voted in Scotland and the turnout. The turnout of 16 and 17 year-olds was remarkably high. It is my recollection that it was slightly lower than among the older sections of the population but it was remarkably high. I refer noble Lords to the fact that the Electoral Commission is, at this moment, undertaking a detailed study of the impact of the votes of 16 and 17 year-olds in Scotland. That report will be published in the relatively near future and I would recommend it as very important reading for those of us who are interested in these issues.

[Lord Rowlands]

Can the Minister tell us how many 16 and 17 year-olds there are?

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Rowlands and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if I may briefly intervene before the Minister moves her amendments. I have a very modest amendment, Amendment 31, which has been included in this list. It addresses a completely separate point from the whole swathe of government amendments and I would suggest that we take Amendment 31 separately. I hope that that would be possible.

[Baroness Randerson]

I understand the noble Lord’s point but I am intending to speak to my amendments and then give way to the noble Lord to make his points. I will then respond separately. Although it is in the same group, there will be plenty of time for us to give separate attention to the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Rowlands]

I appreciate the Minister’s offer but it is a very different point altogether. I think that it would disrupt the flow of the debate on the Government’s amendments if Amendment 31 was included and involved in it.

[Baroness Randerson]

Following the points that the noble Lord has made, we will uncouple his amendment and have a separate debate at that point.

Amendment 24

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

We are talking about the situation in the past. Keith Raffan moved from Wales to Scotland; he also moved from the Conservative Party to the Liberal Democrats. The whole thing is a relevant example: the thing you would imagine would never happen has already happened.

[Lord Rowlands]

I am sorry; I do not know Mr Raffan’s parliamentary history? Was Mr Raffan both a European Member and a Member of the Commons in the same tax year?

[Baroness Randerson]

He was an MP and an MSP in the same tax year. I am pretty certain I am right, but the principle is that he moved from Wales to Scotland, straight from one job to the other.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

These rules flesh out what the term “residence” means in tax rules in relation to Wales. I hope noble Lords will accept that although the rules may not make pretty reading, they are workmanlike and, despite their complexity, they are clear, unambiguous and easy for people to follow.

[Lord Rowlands]

I find it difficult to believe that they are very easy to follow. I also do not believe that there is clarity here: there is a lot of confusion. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, will become completely tax-free as a result of the other provisions in the Bill. What we are trying to show and expose is that we are getting fed up with the way in which Bills are drafted in this kind of way. The constant cross-referencing makes it almost impossible for a Member of Parliament or Member of this House to follow the Bill as closely as he or she would want. This amendment was tabled to cause this debate and I have no intention of forcing it to a vote because, of course, in the process I would take out other parts of the Bill that I would support. I hope that, if nothing else, when Ministers go away and talk to parliamentary draftsmen, they will say that there is great and bitter agitation against this type of drafting and legislation. If nothing else, this debate would then have served a purpose. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Rowlands and Baroness Randerson

Monday 13th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands]

I am not altogether certain that that would happen. There is some indication that if the polls were on the same day, people would vote for the local Assembly Member from one party and for another at United Kingdom level. But if you talk about a mandate, it is always better to have two-thirds of the electorate giving you the mandate than 40%. I am not disputing that it is obviously the wish of everyone in Cardiff to separate the elections, but we should take account of the fact that turnout is important. There is no doubt that there is a big difference at the moment between turnout in National Assembly elections and turnout in UK elections.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their participation in this section of the debate. Amendment 4, proposed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Morgan and Lady Gale, would give the Assembly the power to decide, by resolution, when Assembly elections are held. It would give the Assembly a wide degree of discretion to determine the date of Assembly elections, which is something that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, raised concerns about. We might all be rather worried about that issue because it has such a wide scope. By a simple majority, the Assembly would be able to vote for a change to the length of its terms. Such a power would go beyond that given to other devolved legislatures, which do not have the freedom to vary the length of their terms.

The Government believe that the devolution of further powers to the Assembly, such as this, cannot be undertaken in a piecemeal fashion. Once again, this is an issue that is better discussed and considered in a wider context of other changes to the Welsh devolution settlement arising from the Silk recommendations. It is a fundamental change, as has been said today, to devolve to the Assembly competence over its elections, and it would undoubtedly have knock-on effects on UK government elections. The noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, made the very good point that you would get a higher turnout by holding those two elections in coincidence. I do not think, however, that that would be desirable because it is undoubtedly true that the media in Wales are not strong enough to lead a debate on Welsh issues that is not overshadowed, at the time of the general election, by UK issues.

Amendment 5 seeks to preclude an ordinary general election to the National Assembly being held within 355 days of the UK general election. As I have said, I fully agree with the sentiment behind this, that these should be distinct and separate events. I share the concerns of the noble Lord and the Assembly that holding those elections on the same day would not give electors a clear view of Welsh issues. The Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 changed the length of term of the current Assembly to five years on a one-off basis. Without further provision, the Assembly will return to four-year terms thereafter.

Clause 1, however, already provides for five-year terms in perpetuity for the Assembly’s general elections from 2016 onwards. It already does this without the need for further amendment, making it very unlikely that the Assembly general elections and parliamentary general elections will coincide in future. I am sure that the noble Lord will welcome this, and I thank him for his explanation for including his amendment. I believe, however, that the provisions already included in the Bill will go as far as is necessary to ensure that Assembly elections and parliamentary elections do not coincide.

In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, I point out that the Assembly agreed to the change of date of the elections. This is not something that has simply been visited upon it: it has agreed to it. I welcome once again the conversion of the Labour Party to the idea that the Assembly should have the freedom to do such things as deciding its own elections. It is important in that context that we note that views on devolution are changing fast in some quarters, and it is important that there is public debate as to what additional powers are devolved to the Assembly.

On that basis, I respectfully request that the noble Baroness withdraws her amendment and that the noble Lord does not press his.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Rowlands and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, this has been a good debate. I believe that it has reflected the constitutional importance of the Bill for Wales and for the United Kingdom as a whole. I fear that at times it was a debate on a Bill that many of us would like to write rather than the one before us. As the Minister in charge of the Bill here, my first priority is to ensure that we steer the Bill through safely in the time that we have left in this Parliament. It is very important to me personally that we ensure that that is done because across the Chamber today I have noted very strong support for the Bill in general terms.

I am a devolutionary enthusiast but I am also a pragmatist, and I realise that in some ways the timetable is not ideal. As several noble Lords have mentioned, the Bill is being discussed in the shadow of the Scottish referendum, a point made powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe. We will then have our Committee stage very close on the heels of the result of the Scottish referendum without having time to reflect and to develop ideas. Therefore, I urge noble Lords to judge the Bill on the basis of where we are at present and the fact that it is being very firmly based on the Silk 1 report. The Silk 2 report is for another day and it needs to be considered in the light of our party manifestos. My party’s manifesto will contain a very firm commitment to delivering the Silk recommendations, and I hope that I will see things that I recognise in the manifestos of the other parties represented here today.

I shall try to reply to as many of the issues raised by noble Lords as possible. Many speakers, including the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, mentioned the lock-step. It is clearly something that is going to continue to generate passionate debate. I said in my opening speech that the Government continue to believe that the approach set out in the Bill is appropriate for Wales, given the potentially far-reaching and significant effects of allowing the Welsh Government to alter each income tax band independently. That is our belief, particularly in the light of the porous border between Wales and England and the figures quoted by noble Lords indicating that there is a very large population that might cross that border.

The Government believe very strongly in the impact of the tax banding system on ensuring that taxation is progressive and that it reallocates money across society. That is an important aspect that we have been bearing in mind in relation to the lock-step. However, as I said earlier, at this point the Government remain open to revisiting the arrangements for income tax devolution in the light of changes in Scotland, and I am happy to restate that. I also draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that the new Secretary of State has made it clear that his mind remains open on the issue.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked: if you do not vary the rate of taxation, what is the point of it? The point of it is that it is the basis for borrowing power. It is used as the basis for borrowing power by the Scottish Government and it would be used as such in future by the Welsh Government.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, referred to the level of the block grant adjustment. A number of different views were expressed on this across the Chamber. I make it clear that if the income tax base in Wales grows faster than that in the rest of the UK, the Welsh Government will benefit, even if the Welsh rate is the same as the UK rate. Inevitably, however, if it grows slower, the Welsh Government’s budget will be lower. That is a simple consequence of more accountability, linking the Welsh Government’s budget to the performance of the Welsh economy. This arrangement would incentivise the Welsh Government to grow the economy in Wales but, importantly, it would protect it from UK-wide effects that the UK Government are better placed to manage. It is a fair system, designed to protect Wales from the greatest volatility and it is consistent with our aims of increasing the Welsh Government’s accountability.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked about stamp duty land tax volatility. The block grant adjustment will not reflect SDLT volatility. Instead, the Welsh Government are being given new tools to manage tax volatility, which is part of increasing accountability. Those new tools include a cash reserve that can be used to save tax revenues in good years and spend them when revenues are lower than they have been forecast to be. The Welsh Government will also be able to borrow up to £500 million and up to £200 million in any one year if there are insufficient funds in the cash reserve.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and other noble Lords referred to the sensitivity of the timing of this debate in relation to the Scottish referendum result. I agree, but of course hindsight is a wonderful thing. When the timescale for the Silk process was set out, people did not have any concept that there would be a Scottish referendum at this time.

Many noble Lords raised the reserved powers model. I think that universal support for that has been expressed today across the Chamber. Several noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, also referred to the recent decision on the Agricultural Wages Board. That decision certainly adds to the debate on the issue. However, as several noble Lords recognised and acknowledged, it has to be a longer-term issue. That was recognised by the Silk commission in its second report which made it clear that it was something for manifesto decisions. Even if we made the decision today to go to a reserved powers model, we would not be able to create it and legislate in the timescale left. It is absolutely right that there is a wide public debate on this and I urge noble Lords to encourage that debate.

In many ways the same points should be made about the size of the Assembly and its capacity for scrutiny. It was also an issue raised in the second Silk report, but that is also something for manifestos.

[Lord Rowlands]

Do I take it that, in principle, the coalition Government are in favour of the reserved powers?

[Baroness Randerson]

I am specifically making it clear that the Government do not have a position on the reserved powers model. As the Silk report recommended, this is something for manifesto positions from the different parties. However, my party is in favour of the reserved powers model. That does not make it a government position, and it certainly is not something that can be created now. However much one might wish to do so, we cannot write the kind of complex legislation needed for a reserved powers model of devolution for Wales. If we tried to do so at that speed, we would be in danger of ending up with second-rate legislation, which the people of Wales do not deserve.

I move on to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on corporation tax. I remind the House that the Silk commission said that if corporation tax were devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland it should also be devolved to Wales. There are no current plans to devolve to Scotland and Northern Ireland. However, the Bill contains the power to devolve further taxes to Wales by order. I would like noble Lords to note that. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, raised the same issue about the power to devolve further taxes. A good example would be the aggregates levy once the EU Commission has completed its investigations. That provision is in the Bill as it stands.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, and others, raised the issue of borrowing powers and why they are not higher. I should point out that there are two capital borrowing limits: the annual limit and the overall limit. The overall limit in Scotland is £2.2 billion, which is supported by around £5 billion of annual devolved tax revenue. Using the same ratio, the overall limit in Wales would have been only £100 million. I ask noble Lords to bear that in mind when they ask for Wales to be treated like Scotland. We accepted that £100 million was inadequate so we increased it to £500 million specifically to enable M4 improvements to be undertaken, although there are no restrictions in law on how that could be spent. Obviously this is a power in perpetuity which the Welsh Government could exert for other things.

Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Rowlands and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes an interesting point. It is something that we have come across on a fairly regular basis, that responsibilities are split in a way that is sometimes not obvious and sometimes surprising.

I move on now to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, who asked if there is more contracting-out now. I simply point out that this has always happened—for example, currently only three of the 22 local authorities in Wales have in-house bailiffs. Contracting-out on billing and bailiff services is very common. But a great deal of work has been done by the Welsh Government and by individual local authorities to have codes of conduct and best practice examples to ensure that bailiff services are run by improving standards over the years. A great deal of progress has been made on those issues.

[Lord Rowlands]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister again. I can understand the situation with bailiffs, but my feeling would be that a bailiff would not receive detailed personal information of the individual’s financial circumstances in the same way as some of the other services that are contracted out. That would give the external provider direct access to people’s personal finances, in a way that a bailiff probably would not have.

[Baroness Randerson]

I believe that external services will have no more access than they have had in the past, but they will continue to have an obligation to treat that material as confidential and deal with it in a responsible manner. Local authorities will continue to have—this is not new—a responsibility to ensure that any organisation or individual whom they appoint as a contractor to work on their behalf operates to the highest standards, and maintains confidentiality of personal data. To address here the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, as a very keen advocate of local authorities and someone who believes fervently in local government—and I am very proud of our local government system throughout Britain—I believe that councils are raising council tax, which is the tax that funds a lot of their spending. It is right that they have responsibility for the whole of the functions associated with the raising of that tax. It is important that we have confidence to delegate power to local authorities throughout Britain in order to enable them to raise tax and spend it as efficiently and practically as possible.

Finally, I turn to the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale.

[Lord Rowlands]

If some of these services are contracted out to an external provider and an individual feels that he or she has a grievance at the way that services are being administered, to whom does the individual appeal? If the local authority were doing it, it would be the Local Government Ombudsman. If, for example, an external provider committed a potential act of maladministration, could the individual go to the local ombudsman for redress of the grievance against the external provider?

[Baroness Randerson]

They will continue to appeal in the normal manner, the way in which they have been appealing since the establishment of council tax. The appeal will be to the valuation tribunal in the normal manner.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, expressed concern about the ending of council tax benefit. I do not believe it is an issue of concern in principle that council tax reductions will be done by councils rather than through the benefits system. I think it is very sensible to unite the reductions in council tax for those of limited means with the organisation that levies the tax in the first place. It is part of the Government’s policies of decentralisation and trusting local authorities. In this case, the Welsh Government have made a central scheme, and there are certain limited exceptions that local authorities can make decisions upon, but there is a largely standard scheme throughout Wales.

The concern that the noble Baroness expressed related to people who she believes will not receive the council tax reduction in future. I assure her that throughout Wales, if you are entitled to council tax benefit now, you will be entitled to a council tax reduction in future because the Welsh Government chose to supplement the funding being provided.

I hope that I have addressed all the points that noble Lords have raised. I am now in a position to answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, about the Explanatory Memorandum. This order adds new administrative functions to the 1996 order which relate to council tax reduction schemes, but under the Contracting Out (Functions of Local Authorities: Income-Related Benefits) Order 2002 local authorities could in the past have carried out those functions for council tax benefit.

It may be useful if I review the record and check that I have answered all questions fully. I will pay particular attention to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, about additional functions. I commend the order to the Committee.