Wales Bill

Lord Rowlands Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands (Lab)]

My Lords, many Members of the House who have spoken today have referred to their personal position on devolution. It was a curious coincidence that, as I prepared my thoughts on the Bill, I had an e-mail from a sixth-former in West Wales, Eleri Williams, with a questionnaire. The first question was: had I been a supporter of devolution? I fear that I am in a minority of one in this afternoon’s debate, as I confessed to her and now confess to the House that I was a most reluctant supporter of devolution. That was, frankly, from personal experience as a parliamentary historian who then had the great privilege of sitting for 33 years in the other House, 29 of them representing an iconic Welsh constituency. The notion that I should share this responsibility was rather underwhelming, and the notion that I would lose any constituency responsibility for health, education and transport was very unappealing. That was one factor that led me to stand down in 2001.

However, unlike my noble friend Lord Morgan—Professor Morgan—I think that since then the settlement has benefited from being gradual. We can so easily forget how frail and fragile the support for the settlement was in the first place; it was a very marginal issue. I believe that the gradual approach has been important in allowing the Assembly to build support for the process and for itself. Because of where I come from—the position I take on devolution—I believe that we should not be obsessed by aping the Scots or following the Scottish line. We should shape our devolution settlement based on our political culture and our own demographic factors. That is extremely important.

However, I believe that we are at a stage when one extremely important change has to be made, to which—as, I confess, a reluctant devolutionist—I now give my wholehearted support. That is the whole issue of reserved powers. As a result of the changes that have taken place, this reform is now overdue; it is a most important reform that needs to be made. I regret that it is not in the Bill—not only that, but I am not certain where the Government stand on the issue. Are they just saying that they do not have time to include those proposals in the Bill? Do they support in principle the idea that we should have reserved powers? That is an area that we will need to explore in Committee, because it is becoming extremely important. The case was powerfully made by my noble friend Lord Morgan earlier. That is certainly an issue that we shall pursue in Committee.

The next question that Ms Williams posed to me in her questionnaire was: what did I think about the electoral system? I explained to her that it had been designed primarily because of the fear that the Labour Party would dominate the Assembly if there had been a completely first-past-the-post arrangement, so the electoral system had been successful because there has not been a dominant party. I did have to say, however, that I thought that Clause 2, reversing the ban on dual candidacy, was foolish. I recall vividly the reaction, certainly in our area in West Wales—in the 2003 election, I think it was—to the notion that people who had lost an election should then be elected as Members. Whether we are for or against that, I should much prefer Clause 2 to go and to insert a clause that states that the Assembly should make those decisions. Let the Assembly from now on determine the electoral arrangements. Why is this House going to determine whether dual candidacy is right or wrong? It should be the Assembly’s responsibility, and it would be preferable if we abandoned Clause 2 and introduced a clause that allowed the Assembly to determine its electoral arrangements.

The borrowing powers are important and I support them, as I support the two minor taxes, although, again, I hope that we scrutinise them in Committee, because from reading some of the Commons debates, I do not think that either clause was scrutinised in a proper fashion, and I believe it to be the duty of this House to do so.

On the question of taxation, having read the carefully considered argument that Silk produces, I accept his argument for tax-varying powers, but I hope that we do not become obsessed by them. It would be political surrealism to believe that Governments of whatever political hue will seize on and make dramatic changes in taxation. At best, I think that they will be marginal. As my noble friend reminded us from the Front Bench, a 1p change in tax one way or the other is worth £200 million—not insignificant, but quite insignificant in a budget of £15 billion. I would not wish hot-headed debates to take place on whether we should say yes or no to 1p when a bigger debate about the whole nature and contribution of the Budget and the priorities in that Budget should be centre stage.

I turn finally to a point made by a number of noble Lords: the concern I share about the potential pressures on the Assembly in terms of scrutiny. I had the privilege of sitting with my noble friend Lord Richard on the Richard commission. We spotted then and felt that there was not a robust enough scrutiny system and that this was related to the number of Members of the House. We are now 10 years down the road, the Assembly is accruing more and more responsibilities and powers, and the issue of the robustness of the scrutiny process is a major concern.

With a Welsh Treasury we will have debates on taxation and on public finance issues, so we should remember how powerful and important a role is played in the other House by the Public Accounts Committee, and how uncomfortable Governments have been made by an awkward bunch of Back-Benchers questioning and pressurising. It is one of the great committees of the House and is very effective. I just do not feel that there is the same sense of an awkward squad creating problems and making Governments of whatever party uncomfortable and I think that that is partly related to the size of the Assembly itself: there are not enough Back-Benchers. Therefore I believe that we should accept, as a consequence of the Assembly accruing ever more power, that it has to have the capacity to scrutinise that power, otherwise we will have government but not a democratically scrutinised Government.

It is interesting that there has been almost unanimity in this House—it is easier for us to say, because we are not elected. It is a problem to present an unpalatable case for more politicians, but the case has to be made. It has to be seen in the context of the further accrual, the development of the devolution settlement and the expansion of the Assembly’s powers.

I welcome parts of the Bill and certainly look forward to scrutinising it. I do not know whether I should lock-step or not lock-step; I shall work that out in the course of our debates—and as for indexation and all the other issues, they look like the grist of a good Committee stage. However, I plead that we will not miss, as the professor and noble Lord, Lord Morgan, said, the slightly bigger picture; in particular, the importance of the role of an enhanced National Assembly to deal with the scrutiny of these powers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, this has been a good debate. I believe that it has reflected the constitutional importance of the Bill for Wales and for the United Kingdom as a whole. I fear that at times it was a debate on a Bill that many of us would like to write rather than the one before us. As the Minister in charge of the Bill here, my first priority is to ensure that we steer the Bill through safely in the time that we have left in this Parliament. It is very important to me personally that we ensure that that is done because across the Chamber today I have noted very strong support for the Bill in general terms.

I am a devolutionary enthusiast but I am also a pragmatist, and I realise that in some ways the timetable is not ideal. As several noble Lords have mentioned, the Bill is being discussed in the shadow of the Scottish referendum, a point made powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe. We will then have our Committee stage very close on the heels of the result of the Scottish referendum without having time to reflect and to develop ideas. Therefore, I urge noble Lords to judge the Bill on the basis of where we are at present and the fact that it is being very firmly based on the Silk 1 report. The Silk 2 report is for another day and it needs to be considered in the light of our party manifestos. My party’s manifesto will contain a very firm commitment to delivering the Silk recommendations, and I hope that I will see things that I recognise in the manifestos of the other parties represented here today.

I shall try to reply to as many of the issues raised by noble Lords as possible. Many speakers, including the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, mentioned the lock-step. It is clearly something that is going to continue to generate passionate debate. I said in my opening speech that the Government continue to believe that the approach set out in the Bill is appropriate for Wales, given the potentially far-reaching and significant effects of allowing the Welsh Government to alter each income tax band independently. That is our belief, particularly in the light of the porous border between Wales and England and the figures quoted by noble Lords indicating that there is a very large population that might cross that border.

The Government believe very strongly in the impact of the tax banding system on ensuring that taxation is progressive and that it reallocates money across society. That is an important aspect that we have been bearing in mind in relation to the lock-step. However, as I said earlier, at this point the Government remain open to revisiting the arrangements for income tax devolution in the light of changes in Scotland, and I am happy to restate that. I also draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that the new Secretary of State has made it clear that his mind remains open on the issue.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked: if you do not vary the rate of taxation, what is the point of it? The point of it is that it is the basis for borrowing power. It is used as the basis for borrowing power by the Scottish Government and it would be used as such in future by the Welsh Government.

Several noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, referred to the level of the block grant adjustment. A number of different views were expressed on this across the Chamber. I make it clear that if the income tax base in Wales grows faster than that in the rest of the UK, the Welsh Government will benefit, even if the Welsh rate is the same as the UK rate. Inevitably, however, if it grows slower, the Welsh Government’s budget will be lower. That is a simple consequence of more accountability, linking the Welsh Government’s budget to the performance of the Welsh economy. This arrangement would incentivise the Welsh Government to grow the economy in Wales but, importantly, it would protect it from UK-wide effects that the UK Government are better placed to manage. It is a fair system, designed to protect Wales from the greatest volatility and it is consistent with our aims of increasing the Welsh Government’s accountability.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked about stamp duty land tax volatility. The block grant adjustment will not reflect SDLT volatility. Instead, the Welsh Government are being given new tools to manage tax volatility, which is part of increasing accountability. Those new tools include a cash reserve that can be used to save tax revenues in good years and spend them when revenues are lower than they have been forecast to be. The Welsh Government will also be able to borrow up to £500 million and up to £200 million in any one year if there are insufficient funds in the cash reserve.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and other noble Lords referred to the sensitivity of the timing of this debate in relation to the Scottish referendum result. I agree, but of course hindsight is a wonderful thing. When the timescale for the Silk process was set out, people did not have any concept that there would be a Scottish referendum at this time.

Many noble Lords raised the reserved powers model. I think that universal support for that has been expressed today across the Chamber. Several noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, also referred to the recent decision on the Agricultural Wages Board. That decision certainly adds to the debate on the issue. However, as several noble Lords recognised and acknowledged, it has to be a longer-term issue. That was recognised by the Silk commission in its second report which made it clear that it was something for manifesto decisions. Even if we made the decision today to go to a reserved powers model, we would not be able to create it and legislate in the timescale left. It is absolutely right that there is a wide public debate on this and I urge noble Lords to encourage that debate.

In many ways the same points should be made about the size of the Assembly and its capacity for scrutiny. It was also an issue raised in the second Silk report, but that is also something for manifestos.

[Lord Rowlands]

Do I take it that, in principle, the coalition Government are in favour of the reserved powers?

[Baroness Randerson]

I am specifically making it clear that the Government do not have a position on the reserved powers model. As the Silk report recommended, this is something for manifesto positions from the different parties. However, my party is in favour of the reserved powers model. That does not make it a government position, and it certainly is not something that can be created now. However much one might wish to do so, we cannot write the kind of complex legislation needed for a reserved powers model of devolution for Wales. If we tried to do so at that speed, we would be in danger of ending up with second-rate legislation, which the people of Wales do not deserve.

I move on to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on corporation tax. I remind the House that the Silk commission said that if corporation tax were devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland it should also be devolved to Wales. There are no current plans to devolve to Scotland and Northern Ireland. However, the Bill contains the power to devolve further taxes to Wales by order. I would like noble Lords to note that. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, raised the same issue about the power to devolve further taxes. A good example would be the aggregates levy once the EU Commission has completed its investigations. That provision is in the Bill as it stands.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, and others, raised the issue of borrowing powers and why they are not higher. I should point out that there are two capital borrowing limits: the annual limit and the overall limit. The overall limit in Scotland is £2.2 billion, which is supported by around £5 billion of annual devolved tax revenue. Using the same ratio, the overall limit in Wales would have been only £100 million. I ask noble Lords to bear that in mind when they ask for Wales to be treated like Scotland. We accepted that £100 million was inadequate so we increased it to £500 million specifically to enable M4 improvements to be undertaken, although there are no restrictions in law on how that could be spent. Obviously this is a power in perpetuity which the Welsh Government could exert for other things.