Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2011

Lord Rowlands Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Grand Committee

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)]

My Lords, the purpose of this draft order is to implement the recommendations made by the Boundary Commission for Wales in four interim review reports in relation to the boundaries of certain constituencies and electoral regions of the National Assembly for Wales. If approved, these changes will alter seven of the existing 40 constituencies for the next Welsh Assembly elections, which are scheduled to take place in 2016. This is, however, subject to the commitment that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales has given to look carefully at the implications of having different boundaries for Assembly constituencies and parliamentary constituencies in Wales.

I should perhaps clarify at the outset that the order affects Welsh Assembly boundaries only and has no impact on the boundaries of any Welsh parliamentary constituencies at Westminster.

I wish to put on the record thanks to the Boundary Commission for Wales and its secretariat for its work in carrying out these reviews. As always, the commission has carried out its duties thoroughly and conscientiously. I particularly thank the deputy chair of the commission, Mr Justice Lloyd Jones, for overseeing this work.

[Lord Rowlands]

I apologise for interrupting the Minister but he said that this order did not have anything to do with the parliamentary boundaries, so why does it have the words “Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions” in its title?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

That is a very good question and I hope that the answer I give will satisfy the noble Lord. He will know that this is an amendment order and it is amending the Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) Order 2006. However, I think we are clear that it will affect only the Assembly constituencies. A smaller number of people are affected. Nevertheless, for the electors and the relevant Assembly Members concerned, these are important. I am sure that MPs in the other place whose constituencies cover the areas affected will have been interested in the changes; indeed, they were debated there yesterday.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rowlands]

My Lords, I wish to speak briefly, partly because one of these orders amends the constituency which I had the privilege of serving. I, too, am somewhat puzzled by the point made by my noble friend—in particular, not on the rights and wrongs of the argument, but on the wording of the Explanatory Memorandum under the title “Guidance”. It says:

“The changes being made by the Order will be applicable for the next elections for the National Assembly for Wales, currently scheduled for 2016”.

It does not say “may be” or “could be” or “subject to further possible change”; it is an absolute statement meaning that when we approve this order, it will establish the constituency boundary for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney in the 2016 Assembly elections. I am puzzled by the conflicting guidance that we are getting from the clear explanatory note and other statements that have been made. I speak as the former Member for this constituency and am a great believer in expansion and all 18 new electors who are added to it.

The Merthyr/Brecon boundary has a wonderful chequered history. The enfranchisement of Merthyr in the first place, which was the very last amendment to the then Reform Bill 1832, included in the constituency at the very last minute Cefn Coed-y-Cymer, which is in the Vaynor area. Some time later it went out and then it came back in, and I had the privilege of serving the Vaynor ward as a part of the Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney constituency. There is a bit of a history to this Brecon/Merthyr boundary discussion.

The point I find comforting about this order is the way in which it powerfully reaffirms a very good principle that I fundamentally support, that there should be a clear correlation between community boundaries and Assembly and parliamentary constituency boundaries. The Boundary Commissioner and we have all agreed that what we are doing here is altering boundaries, albeit in small measure, to ensure that we confirm and conform to the principle that there is an excellent correlation between community boundaries and parliamentary and Assembly boundaries. Therefore I find it richly ironic that this order is made under the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act, the very Act which most of us fear is going to destroy and undermine that close relationship. We cannot see how, in pursuit of this holy grail of equalisation, we will actually be able to maintain and sustain the close correlation between local community boundaries and parliamentary constituency boundaries. I find it richly ironic that this order is being used to confirm a great principle, while the Act itself, we fear—and the Boundary Commission’s report is coming out—will undermine that very principle. Therefore, I fear I must tell the Minister that, while there is consensus on this order, I doubt if there is going to be consensus on any future orders.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Perhaps I could just repeat what the noble Baroness quoted to me: my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales said at Oral Questions that she would seriously consider the point that was made. It would be wrong for us to prejudge the outcome of any consultation that could take place, but I assure the noble Baroness and the Committee that no change will be made without proper consultation. The Secretary of State has given a commitment to consider the point that was made to her in exchanges in the Commons, and that consideration is what she is currently doing.

[Lord Rowlands]

Why, therefore, is no such qualification included in the Explanatory Memorandum to the order? Why is there nothing saying, “Oh yes, but there may now be changes of the kind that the Minister is saying might happen”?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Quite simply because the Explanatory Memorandum is a statement of the effect of the order as the law currently stands, not a statement of policy. I hope that in presenting the order I made it very clear—I think I have repeated it twice now—that that is subject to the commitment that my right honourable friend has made. Just to be clear, the Explanatory Memorandum is a statement of what the effect of the order would be as a matter of law; it is not intended to be a statement of policy. I hope that clarifies the position. The Secretary of State is doing what she said in that exchange that she would do and considering what the effect is of the fact that there are implications of the disjunction.

My noble friend Lady Randerson asked me to confirm that that was the case in Scotland. It is indeed the position that the UK parliamentary constituencies do not match the Scottish parliamentary constituencies. I would be brave to say that the political parties necessarily find it easy but I rather suspect that individual members of the public, who at the end of the day matter most, have little difficulty in identifying their Member of the Scottish Parliament and their Member of the UK Parliament.

Perhaps for clarity, I should say that there is nothing at the moment in law or in any arrangements that would look at how Welsh Assembly constituencies would change. I say purely as a matter of fact that when the disjunction took place in Scotland, primary legislation was brought in in Scotland to make provision for a separate boundary review of the Scottish parliamentary constituencies. Let us not interpret that as in any way a commitment that we are about to bring forward legislation, but that is factually how that position has been addressed in the longer term in Scotland.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I cannot answer that question because there is no answer to it at the moment, other than that, having established boundaries, clearly they cannot go on for ever. The very nature of our system is that the boundaries should be regularly updated. We now say that UK boundaries should be done on a regular basis every five years; previously, as I have indicated, it was done every eight to 12 years. It is clear that at some stage some mechanism will need to be put in place to allow an update of the boundaries, but it would be presumptuous and premature of me to speculate now on when that would be, and indeed on whether we will use the same people to do it and what the criteria would be for these boundaries. That is a debate for another day. There are no proposals. However, the noble Lord was right to identify the fact that, as there is a disjunction, there has to be a mechanism at some point for updating the boundaries for the Assembly.

[Lord Rowlands]

I apologise, but if there are changes of the kind that are being foreshadowed, would they require legislation and where would that legislation take place?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I am almost certain that it would require legislation and it would be Westminster legislation, just as with Scotland when as a result of a disjunction there was primary legislation in 2004. I am as certain as I can be that that is what the position would be.

This debate has been useful because it has brought out a number of important issues, and I am sure that there will be further discussions when the Boundary Commission for Wales produces its proposals for the Welsh parliamentary constituencies. I very much valued the historic insight into the boundaries between Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, where the noble Lord served with distinction when he and I were colleagues in the Commons. Since then, people have come and gone over a number of years, and this is perhaps just the latest instalment; I am sure that there will be many in years to come when our successors are sitting here or in the other place—with whatever role this place has in a century’s time. On the basis that in the terms of the order there does not need to be any dispute, I commend the order to the Committee.