Investigatory Powers Bill

Debate between Lord Rosser and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 19th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I have not spoken at all on this Bill so far but I should like to make a practical point following what the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and previous speakers have said. I speak as a former family judge who over the years has been very involved in safeguarding. One of the most important things is to be sure that the police—it is really the police that we are talking about, rather than the security services—have all the tools that they can possibly have to be able to convince a jury, on a prosecution, that a really serious crime has been committed. If this is going to catch even more paedophiles I endorse it, and I hope the House will agree with me.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I shall be very brief. As has been said, the provisions of this Bill have been subject to considerable scrutiny. The heart of Amendment 156A is about the balance between privacy, security and safety. Inevitably there will be disagreements, which have been highlighted in this debate, about where an appropriate and proper balance lies.

On Amendment 147A, I have virtually no knowledge about the Advocate-General’s opinion, to which reference has been made. However, if we have that opinion, we would like to hear at some stage whether the Government think that it would have implications for any of the provisions and procedures in the Bill, were that opinion subsequently adopted.

Modern Slavery Act 2015 (Code of Practice) Regulations 2016

Debate between Lord Rosser and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Wednesday 27th April 2016 Grand Committee

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I think the code of practice is absolutely excellent and I have no comment on it, other than to praise it. I am absolutely delighted that the Modern Slavery Act includes these powers on ships.

I hope the Minister will forgive me for raising an issue that is not strictly on board ship. I remain, with others, very concerned about smaller ports. I have two questions, but I do not necessarily expect the Minister to be able to answer them today. First, what are the powers and code of practice in relation to ports in England and Wales, particularly the smaller ports that have regular ferry services but are not in the larger group? Secondly, the particular port I have in mind, which those of us concerned with modern slavery are especially worried about, is Holyhead. Holyhead does not appear to have a very good organisation at the moment for checking those who are coming through, who may in fact be being brought in for forced labour or sexual or other exploitation. Perhaps I could be told at some stage what is going to be done, or is already being done, about the smaller ports, with a really close look at what is happening in Holyhead.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his explanation of the purpose and effect of this order, which brings into force a code of practice to be followed by constables and enforcement officers when arresting a person under the maritime enforcement powers set out in the Modern Slavery Act 2015. Without the powers in the 2015 Act, law enforcement authorities are not in a position effectively to police modern slavery offences that take place in international waters, and do not have the power to stop or divert vessels in UK territorial waters.

Human trafficking and modern slavery do not occur only outside the United Kingdom. The National Crime Agency has reported that last year 3,266 people, of whom 928 were children, were identified as potential victims of trafficking in the United Kingdom, with that first figure being a 40% increase on the number of potential victims in 2014. The United Kingdom is predominantly a destination country for victims of trafficking but it is also a source and transit country. Last year, potential victims of trafficking found here were reported to be from 102 different countries of origin.

Of course, our police and border forces need to have the most effective means available to pursue, disrupt and bring to justice those engaged in human trafficking. The code covers arrest and obtaining information. Is that power restricted to the ship or vessel on which it is suspected that slavery or human trafficking is taking place, or does it cover any wider geographical area or port facilities used, or about to be used, by the ship, or other vessels supplying or servicing the ship?

The Explanatory Memorandum states that the Government are,

“working with the Scottish Government and Northern Irish Executive with a view to commencing the maritime powers in Parts 2 and 3 of Schedule 2 simultaneously across the United Kingdom on 31 May 2016”.

I am not sure whether the Minister said that that objective had now been achieved or it is still to be achieved. If it is the latter, what would the consequences be if it was not achieved by 31 May 2016?

The Explanatory Memorandum refers to consultation that has taken place on the draft code of practice and states that, in response to comments made,

“the Code was amended to improve provisions for record keeping by constables and enforcement officers, and enhance the information to be provided to arrested persons on the period of time likely to be spent in transit to a police station or other authorised place of detention”.

Were any other suggestions or requests made in the consultation in relation to the code of practice that were not taken on board by the Government? If so, what did they cover?

Finally, were any issues raised by the Independent Anti-slavery Commissioner about the code of practice, and is he satisfied with the wording of the code and its consistency, for example, with other relevant codes of practice?

Modern Slavery Act 2015 (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Rosser and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Grand Committee

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I am delighted with these amendments and with the placing of the Modern Slavery Act into the other Acts that is a necessary part of making this work. I have only one point to make, and it is in no way a criticism of the Government; on the contrary, I very much support what they are doing. The one problem I have is to be sure that under Regulation 26 the judiciary understand that if there is any confiscation of assets from traffickers or slave-owners, they ought to be prepared to give priority to making reparation orders to the victims. That is my only point of concern, to ensure that the judiciary know about that.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his explanation of the purpose and impact of this SI, which, as the Explanatory Memorandum says, amends primary legislation in the light of the commencement of sections of the Modern Slavery Act 2015. In particular, the amendments made by this SI ensure that primary legislation that contains references to the existing criminal offences is updated to reflect the new offences under the 2015 Act of slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour and human trafficking, as well as slavery and trafficking reparation orders. I do not have any questions to ask, so I conclude by saying that we support the purpose of this SI.

Modern Slavery Bill

Debate between Lord Rosser and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, the points made in this amendment seem to me of considerable importance. However, if the Minister could go back to his department and be reasonably certain that these aspects will be reflected in the regulations, it would not be necessary to test the opinion of the House.

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

I will make a few brief comments, largely in line with the views that have already been expressed. A number of noble Lords have already referred to the Minister’s comment on Report that the government amendments would,

“allow for regulations to be made about accommodation, financial assistance, assistance in obtaining healthcare … the provision of information, and translation and interpretation services where a person is a victim of modern slavery or there are reasonable grounds to believe that they are”.—[Official Report, 25/2/15; col. 1684.]

However, the indications that the Minister gave about what could be included in regulations did not appear in the enabling clause and are not in the Bill. That is precisely the point that the noble Lord, Lord McColl, made.

I assume that the Minister does not intend to accept the amendment—I think that he would already have indicated if it was his intention to do so. However, as has been pointed out, we are facing the prospect that victims of trafficking in England and Wales will have fewer statutory rights than victims in Scotland and Northern Ireland, where statutory support services are set out in detail in the relevant legislation. As the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, said, the purpose of his amendment is to provide clarity at least about the fundamental principles of support.

I ask the Minister only to give a helpful response to the amendment. He has been asked in particular to commit to the various issues that he said the regulations could cover. Will he stand up now and say that they are not, in that sense, meaningless words and that the regulations will cover the specific issues to which he referred when he spoke on Report? Ideally, noble Lords would like to see this in the Bill—but if the Minister is not able to agree to that, I hope that he might at least be able to say something rather firmer that will leave people with a very clear view that these issues most certainly will be in the regulations when they come out.

Modern Slavery Bill

Debate between Lord Rosser and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Monday 8th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, it is entirely understandable that Schedule 3 should be part of the Bill. It is important that the serious offences should not be included in a defence. However, listening to what the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy and Lady Hamwee, said, and looking through Schedule 3, it seems to me that a great deal of it is utterly unnecessary. I remember discussing this with the former Attorney-General, Dominic Grieve, at a time when he was eventually agreeing that there should be a defence at all. He said that Schedule 3 would apply and I cheerfully said, “Yes, of course it will apply”, but I did not read all the way through. It was not until this version of the Bill came, with all these exceptions to the defence, that one sees that this really goes beyond what is necessary, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, has put out extremely effectively. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, says, that may be a problem.

I would have thought that this was absolutely a situation in which the Government, with the assistance of the Director of Public Prosecutions, could sort the wheat from the chaff. A great deal of these offences are not applicable or appropriate for victims of slavery, although they are entirely appropriate in other areas of criminal law where you should not have a defence on these issues. The Government should look at this and consider whether they want the whole of Schedule 3.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I, too, would like to raise one or two questions about Schedule 3, since my noble friend Lady Kennedy of Cradley has given us the opportunity to consider it.

As I understand it, under Clause 45, a victim is not guilty of an offence only if they have done the act which constitutes the offence because they have been compelled to do that act, the compulsion is attributable to slavery or the relevant exploitation and a reasonable person in the same situation as the person, and having the person’s relevant characteristics, would have no realistic alternative to doing that act. If the victim has managed to meet these requirements, Clause 45(1) still does not apply if the offence committed is listed in Schedule 3, which, as has already been pointed out in another way, extends to six and a half pages of offences. Some are easily understandable for being on that list, such as murder, manslaughter and kidnapping, but others are not so obvious bearing in mind the requirements under Clause 45 that the victim will already have had to meet in order to use Clause 45 as a defence.

In view of that, how does the Minister justify the need for such an extensive list of offences for which a victim can be found guilty even though they have met the three requirements to which I have already referred under Clause 45(1)? How and against what criteria was this list of offences compiled? To look at one example, included in the list is an offence under Section 25 of the Immigration Act 1971 of assisting unlawful immigration to a member state, which is an offence one might normally associate with a trafficker rather than the victim. Is there evidence that victims of trafficking are committing this offence of assisting unlawful immigration to a member state unrelated to their being trafficked themselves? If there is, is it also appropriate that they could be found guilty of such an offence, despite meeting the requirements in respect of compulsion and the reasonable person test under Clause 45(1) to show that they cannot be guilty of an offence unless it is listed in Schedule 3?

Modern Slavery Bill

Debate between Lord Rosser and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Monday 1st December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, our amendment is not as precise in the changes it proposes as the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich. Our amendment provides for the Secretary of State to,

“undertake a review of the links between prostitution and human trafficking and sexual exploitation in England and Wales”,

and sets out the issues that must be considered in that review; namely,

“the extent to which the current legislation governing prostitution in England and Wales acts as an effective deterrent to demand for sexual services from exploited persons … the extent to which the current legislation governing prostitution in England and Wales enables effective enforcement action against those trafficking people for sexual exploitation; and … the extent to which alternative legal frameworks for governing prostitution adopted by other countries within the European Union, including Northern Ireland, have been effective at reducing sexual exploitation and the number of people trafficked for the purpose of sexual exploitation”.

Delving into the world of buying and selling sex reveals a complex web of abuse, control, money and power. Last year the Home Office estimated that the trade in the human trafficking of women to be sexually exploited in the United Kingdom was worth at least £130 million. One example was of a woman who came to our country from Uganda to get away from her abusive husband. She was told by a friend that he could find her a job in a catering company. When she arrived, however, she was driven to a house in Manchester, locked in a room, raped, beaten and forced into prostitution. After a few months, she managed to escape.

It has been estimated by the Home Office that 80,000 people in the UK, mainly women and girls, are involved in prostitution. The reality is that there are thousands of women in our country who are living in sexual slavery. They get there by different routes—pimped by people they know or trafficked by organised gangs—and many are extremely vulnerable, having been abused in the past. As the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, said, a report published last summer by the Serious Organised Crime Agency showed that sexual exploitation was the most likely type of exploitation for people trafficked into England and Wales. There is growing evidence that many of those in prostitution began to be involved in this work before they were 18 and Home Office research has revealed that approximately 50% of women in prostitution became involved before reaching that age.

The physical and psychological consequences for those exploited through prostitution can be severe. The Journal of Trauma Practice found that once they have become embroiled in the trade, nine out of 10 women report wanting to exit but feel unable to so do. They do not know where to get support or do not believe that other work is available to them. The Home Office’s own figures suggest that more than half of the women involved in prostitution have been victims of rape or sexual assault.

We need to look at how countries elsewhere may have reformed their laws to protect women, developed effective exit strategies, reduced the number of people trafficked for sexual exploitation, reduced violence and reduced the market for buying sex, which traffickers and pimps exploit and from which they profit, as we know. That is why we have put forward this amendment to require the Government to carry out a detailed review, with the ultimate objective of seeking measures to keep more women safe.

Of course, we should not make changes without fully understanding the impact they might have. There are differing views on possible courses of action, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, would accept. We need to be sure that any changes will not push women into even more vulnerable and dangerous situations, and we need to consult and seek a wide range of views. However, we surely cannot continue as we are. This amendment, with the provision for a review of the links between prostitution, human trafficking and sexual exploitation, seeks to provide a considered and appropriate way forward. I hope it will find favour with the Government.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I waited until I had heard the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, before expressing any views on these amendments. I entirely understand the admirable motivation behind the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, but one has to bear in mind that prostitution is one of the oldest trades over hundreds of years, if not thousands.

Something somewhat similar was proposed in the other place by Fiona Mactaggart MP. I certainly received a large number of e-mails about it from the various associations of women prostitutes. They were very much opposed to the sort of legislation which has now come before this House, although I understand that it is not exactly the same as that which was proposed by Fiona Mactaggart. Having said that, there is undoubtedly a real problem, because some of those who are prostitutes are certainly trafficked.

I recall going to a small town in Holland where, as noble Lords will know, prostitution is legal. I saw women sitting in the windows in what was quite a small town. The curtains were open if they were not working, and they were all on their mobiles talking to the pimps. There is no doubt at all, from what the local mayor told me when he took me round, that he knew that a large proportion of these women were actually trafficked, although they could not tell him that and they were all registered for business purposes, if you can believe that. He arranged for his staff to ask them whether they had come as victims of trafficking, but none of them would say so because they could not afford to do so.

There is a very major problem in this country, as well as in Holland and in other countries. I strongly support the amendment tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. The time has come to look at prostitution right across the board, but particularly at its impact on women who come into this country—or are already in this country—who are in fact the victims of slavery, and who are not doing this work voluntarily.

Modern Slavery Bill

Debate between Lord Rosser and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Monday 1st December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

Following on from what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, said, might it be sensible to look at a further amendment on Report that does not involve the various issues pointed out by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Lord, Lord Quirk? Could there be a short general clause about the purpose of the Bill being to look after the best interests of victims? The Minister has said that the best interests of the victims come into each of the clauses, but a very short clause of two sentences might perhaps set out the primary purpose of the Bill. Indeed, the Home Secretary has mentioned the victim focus in her introduction. I wonder whether that might be a way out of all the points we have been making.

[Lord Rosser]

I am more than happy to consider that. I think I have made clear that I am not going to any barricades over the wording of the amendment. It is more about trying to achieve an objective that, in my view and that of many others, improves the Bill for victims. I take on board the point made by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. Would the Minister be prepared to have discussions which include all those who have spoken in this debate—if they wish to take part—on getting some wording into the Bill that might satisfy the Government as well as the other parties? I realise that the Government have their interests and reasons for taking the stance that they have, but the objective of us all is to improve a Bill which we all support and which we are not voting against.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Rosser and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 15th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, the proposal to have mandatory reporting has many attractions. I think, however, that even with the exceptions that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has suggested, it may be too simplistic. There are already many organisations involved with children that have the obligation to report. For instance, the safeguarding of the Church of England requires people to report. The safeguarding of the Roman Catholic Church certainly does. I was vice-chairman of the Cumberlege Commission, in which we advised the then Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster how the clergy and members of the diocese of the Roman Catholic Church of England should be reporting, among other things. Our report was approved by the Vatican.

Obviously, there are the police, social services, the health services and so on. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, said—and I endorse her words of wisdom—we need to look at this with a great deal of care because it is the issue of culture as much as the issue of prosecuting for failure to report which lies behind the problems we have. I hope the Minister will go away taking with him not only the understandable suggestions of the right reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, but also the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, as to what really needs to be looked at. I hope he will take all that away before coming to a decision on whether there should be mandatory reporting. I strongly support the caution that the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, has put forward.

[Lord Rosser]

I will raise one question, to which I hope the Minister will be able to respond. The right reverend Prelate has referred to the indication given in the Commons last week by the Prime Minister that the Government were looking at whether we should change the law so that there will be a requirement to report abuse and it will be a criminal offence not to report it. Can the Minister be more specific than he appeared to be on the last group of amendments about the timescale within which the Government expect these deliberations to be concluded?