Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) Order 2013

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Thursday 7th February 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 provides a framework within which the UK can make and execute requests for mutual legal assistance. In an effort to further improve international co-operation, we are seeking to designate the Republic of Armenia, the Republic of Chile and Ukraine as participating countries for the purpose of various sections of that Act. The designations that will be made under the order are necessary as these three countries have ratified the second additional protocol to the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters 1959.

This convention is an important instrument as it forms the international basis for numerous incoming and outgoing requests. The second additional protocol is aimed at strengthening mutual legal assistance among parties and widening the scope of available mutual legal assistance. Under the 2003 Act, a state must fall within the definition of participating country contained in Section 51(2)(b) of the Act in order for the UK to seek and provide mutual legal assistance to a country in accordance with these provisions.

A country falls to be regarded as a participating country if it was a member state of the European Union on the date at which the relevant provisions of the 2003 Act were commenced or if it has been designated as a participating country by an order made by the Secretary of State. As Armenia, Chile and Ukraine are not EU member states, this order seeks to designate them as participating countries for the purpose of various sections of the Act.

The effect of the designations will be as follows. First, designation of the relevant states as participating countries for the purposes of Section 31 of, and paragraph 15 of Schedule 2 to, the 2003 Act will allow the UK to execute requests for witnesses in this country to give evidence in foreign proceedings by telephone and ensure that where such evidence is given the process is supervised by a court in the participating country.

Secondly, designation of the relevant states as participating countries for the purposes of Section 47 will allow the temporary transfer of UK prisoners to that participating country to assist with investigations into an offence which was, or may have been, committed in the UK. Thirdly, designation for the purpose of Section 48 will allow the temporary transfer of prisoners from a participating country to the UK to assist with investigations into an offence which was, or may have been, committed in that participating country.

The UK is committed to improving the provision of mutual legal assistance, and this order will enhance the level of co-operation that the UK can offer to, and seek from, other countries. This is a key tool in combating cross-border crime and ensuring justice for British victims of crime. I commend the order to the Committee, and I beg to move.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, it would probably be an exaggeration to say that there was an enormous amount of interest in this order. Nevertheless, I thank the Minister for the explanation of the purpose of the order, which activates powers within the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 to add to the list of countries with which mutual legal assistance in criminal matters exists. The 2003 Act was enacted to implement ratification of the EU Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters 2000. The 2000 convention extended and improved the facilities for mutual legal assistance created under the earlier non-EU convention of 1959.

The 2000 EU convention requires participating member states to meet requests from each other to facilitate criminal investigations, including sharing of investigation documents, transmission of stolen objects, video conferencing of witnesses, covert investigations and interception of telecommunications.

Non-EU countries which have ratified the second additional protocol to the 1959 European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters can be added to the list of EU member states that are required to participate, but this designation as a participating country must be done by order, and this order adds the Republic of Armenia, the Republic of Chile and the Ukraine to the list of participating countries. The second additional protocol, to which I have referred, provides for hearings by teleconference, as the Minister has said, and for the temporary transfer of detained persons to another country.

In view of recent pronouncements, it is not clear whether the order we are being invited to approve will have a long shelf life. Last October, the Home Secretary announced that the Government planned to opt out of all 134 EU crime and policing measures negotiated prior to the Lisbon treaty through the UK’s prerogative under Protocol 36. That approach is, of course, in line with the apparent majority government view that the EU should be a free trade area and not much else beyond that.

The 2000 EU convention is now due to be amended by the directive on the European investigation order, which is currently waiting for adoption by the European Parliament. As I understand it, if the European investigation order directive is not adopted by the time the Government decide to exercise their opt-out from the 134 EU policing and crime measures, which the Government could do at any time before 31 May 2014, the EU 2000 Convention on Mutual Legal Assistance between the UK and EU member states on criminal investigation matters would cease to apply to the United Kingdom.

Other significant mutual agreements that would also be lost by the 2000 EU convention ceasing to apply to the UK include: the establishment of the European arrest warrant, which has seen 600 criminals returned to Britain to face justice, including terrorists, and, most recently, a teacher suspected of abduction; minimum standards across the EU for counterterrorism co-operation, skills and expertise; sharing of criminal records, which would include, for example, those of a known sex offender travelling to Britain from another EU member state; co-operation on the identification of laundered money; co-operation between member states in tracing and freezing criminal assets; agreements with Interpol on sharing intelligence; and agreements with the United States on the processing of passenger name records data by airlines.

Given that the Home Secretary has already indicated her preference to opt out of all 134 EU crime and policing measures, including, presumably, the 2000 EU convention, what is the Government’s purpose in seeking to add to the list of partner countries with which mutual assistance under the 2000 convention applies? Can the Minister say what will happen to the mutual assistance agreements with these three additional countries referred to in this order if the Government proceed with their declared wish to exercise their opt-out from the 134 EU crime and policing measures, including, presumably, the 2000 EU convention? Will we still have a mutual assistance agreement with the three countries referred to in this order or is the mutual assistance agreement with these three countries dependent on our not having opted out of the 134 EU crime and policing measures, including the 2000 EU convention, since the agreement with these three countries is not bilateral but through the European Union?

If the Government feel that there is merit in having mutual assistance agreements with the Republic of Armenia, the Republic of Chile and the Ukraine, will the Minister say what effect the 2000 EU convention ceasing to apply to the United Kingdom would have in terms of our ability to pursue criminal investigations and bring to justice offenders based in these three additional participating countries?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

Although he did not say it, I take it from his comments that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, supports the order. I am grateful to him for that.

On his broader point about the Government’s decision on opting out from the European justice and home affairs measures in the European Union, as he knows, discussions about this are taking place within the Government and an assessment is being made of the value of those arrangements to the UK. As my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said very clearly to Parliament, the Government’s current intention is to opt out of all measures and to seek to rejoin those where it is in the national interest to do so. The Government have committed to a vote in both Houses before a final decision is made. The priority is to ensure that the final decision is, as I say, in the UK’s national interest.

If the UK decides to opt out, en masse, of all 134 EU measures, we still have the Council of Europe convention of 1959. This is not an EU measure and so it does not fall within the scope of the 2014 opt-out decision. However, in light of the fact that, as the noble Lord said, there are no other noble Lords participating in the debate today, my answer to the point that he raised is clear: this order is necessary to allow the UK to continue to fulfil its international obligations and to ensure that the UK can successfully prosecute international crime and achieve justice for British victims of such crime. Again, I commend it to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rosser]

I am certainly not going to oppose the order but if the European Investigation Order directive is not adopted by the time the Government decide to exercise an opt-out from the 134 EU policing and crime measures—which they could do at any time before 31 May 2014—is it true that the EU Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters between the UK and EU member states ceases to apply to the United Kingdom? If that is the case, what effect does it have on the mutual assistance agreements with the three countries referred to in the order?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I have made clear, the Government’s intention is to opt out of the measures and seek to rejoin those where it is in the national interest to do so. That is clearly what the Home Secretary has said and that is what we will do.

[Lord Rosser]

I have asked a specific question. I do not mind if the Minister is not able directly to answer the question today—I do not expect her to be a walking encyclopaedia—and I will be happy if she undertakes to write to me with a response. That would be quite satisfactory.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As I understand it, we have already opted in to the European Investigation Order and have subscribed to that. Yes, it is in scope but, as I have already said to the noble Lord, our intention is to rejoin those measures where it is in the national interest to do so. I think I have now answered his question.

Young Offenders: Employment and Training

Lord Rosser Excerpts

Wednesday 17th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, I, too, add my congratulations to my noble friend Lady Healy of Primrose Hill on securing this debate. The contributions of both the noble Baroness and all other Members of your Lordships’ House who have spoken have made this a thoughtful and informative debate.

Young offenders, like other offenders, cost the country money through the damage and disruption they have caused and may cause, in addition to the adverse social consequences of their actions and the impact on their victims. It is in everyone’s interest, not least their own, to try to minimise the likelihood of their reoffending. Not having any money, a job or anywhere to live are three factors that increase the likelihood of reoffending by young offenders leaving prison. Having no money, or hardly any, to buy the basic necessities of life simply encourages action, often in desperation, to obtain money by illegal means or in return for illegal acts. Having no accommodation to go to also increases the likelihood of resuming previous contact with those who would hardly act as a brake in discouraging reoffending and generates a feeling of instability, hopelessness and despair. Having no job, or not being on a worthwhile training programme with a realistic prospect of obtaining a job, means that a significant potential ladder for reaching the goal of turning away from offending and achieving a sense of purpose in life is removed.

Reference has already been made in this debate to reductions in or withdrawal of benefits, both actual and pending, that would adversely affect the already weak financial position of young offenders leaving prison. It would help if the Minister could indicate in his response what effect the Government feel these reductions or withdrawals of benefit will have on the incidence of reoffending by young offenders leaving prison and the basis on which the Government reached whatever may be their conclusions on this specific point.

I hope the Minister will also be able to advise us of what the most recent figures show in respect of the cost of helping a young offender find employment or training, as compared with the savings resulting from an end to reoffending or a reduction in the incidence and level of seriousness of reoffending by that young offender. Money may be in short supply, and helping young offenders in prison and on leaving prison may not be a priority for most of the national media in this country—or perhaps for some politicians. However, it would be helpful to know what the costs and savings figures are on which the Government are presumably basing their approach to deciding how much to spend on training for young offenders in prison, and on training, finding employment and the levels of benefit available for young offenders when they leave prison.

Obviously we can have only one departmental Minister replying to this debate on helping young offenders. However, what does or does not happen to the young offender in prison in respect of skills, training and education has a considerable impact on their position once they leave prison. Once again, it would be helpful if the Minister would talk about the contact and liaison arrangements between the Ministry of Justice and other relevant departments, including his own, to ensure some continuity of training provision and assistance in finding employment for young offenders once they leave prison, and in addressing the problems so many of them face, which were eloquently and forcefully highlighted by many noble Lords.

In a debate on 9 February this year, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said that the MoJ and the Department for Work and Pensions were in close contact and trying to work through the issues associated with offenders leaving prison. Have we now got beyond the stage of the DWP and MoJ trying to work through the issues, including ensuring no delay over the payment of relevant benefits? Have the issues now been worked through with agreed solutions and processes? If so, what decisions have been made since February, and what policies and processes implemented, that will contribute to helping young offenders find employment or training on release from prison, and will also address the many and diverse problems that so many have to overcome, which were highlighted by many noble Lords? What is the level of contact between the Department for Work and Pensions, the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Communities and Local Government over assistance to young offenders in finding accommodation on release, since their success or otherwise in finding accommodation is likely to have a major impact on their success or otherwise in finding employment or securing training?

Young offenders who have just left prison are likely to be under some form of supervision for a period of time. Apparently the Government are embarking on significant changes in the role of the probation service and the level of private sector involvement in that field. Has the Department for Work and Pensions had any input into the Government’s thinking on the extent of the future role of the probation service, since that, too, could have an impact on young offenders when they are in prison and when they leave?

As my noble friend Lady Healy of Primrose Hill said, schemes have been in existence for some time, run by different organisations, particularly in the voluntary sector, which show that finding and providing training, and finding employment for young offenders by also addressing the problems faced by so many of them, can have a significant impact on reoffending rates. Outside commercial companies are also used to assist in finding employment or training schemes for young offenders leaving prison. Perhaps the Minister will say something about the success rate of these organisations and the nature of the contracts with them. How is having helped someone find employment or an appropriate training course defined and assessed in the contract? Are payments made at different stages in the process? If so, how are they weighted, and how and by whom is the checking and verification undertaken?

Employment and training for young offenders requires resources and commitment. It also requires a mentality that does not think that young people who have committed offences should receive what are described as tough sentences and not much else. Neither will an approach work that considers it inappropriate for young offenders leaving prison to receive publicly funded assistance in finding employment or training—although the continuing high unemployment rate for young people generally does not help the situation.

Finally, I come back to the question of money and resources. Will the Minister say whether the Government regard money spent on the training and education of young offenders in prison, and on helping them find employment or training on their release, as an overall cost to the public purse or as expenditure that produces an overall saving?