Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Rix and Lord Freud

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rix]

I apologise for interrupting yet again. The point is that if, as I said, the annual health checks are taken for these people it can be reported medically. Certainly the carers can report on this. There is no question that if your son or daughter or your friend is obviously not receiving the amount they should be, it is up to you to get hold of the necessary officials and to inform them. Equally, the annual health checks should certainly—for people with a learning disability anyway, although I do not know about other disabilities —take care of any deterioration in condition.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, let me go through the approach we are planning to take in PIP. It will involve a personalised approach and, in some cases, awards will be fixed for a short period—maybe one or two years—but in others they will be much longer and we are looking at awards that could be five or 10 years. That will depend on the circumstances of the individual, the impact of their health condition or their impairment and the extent to which they are able to live independently and participate in society. In many circumstances, this can change for better or for worse during someone’s lifetime and that will be different for different people. Therefore flexibility in award durations is key and will allow decision-makers to tailor awards appropriately. Again, we will be working with disability organisations and disabled people to develop the necessary guidance to support these decisions over the next 12 months. There will be many chances to get this absolutely right in the months to come.

I must quote the noble Lord, Lord Touhig—who is not in his place—who quoted Lorna Wing, one of the founders of the National Autistic Society, who said, “When you have seen one person with autism, you have seen one person with autism”, which is a phrase that will remain with quite a few of us in the years to come. Our flexible approach should allow us to provide the support to meet the variable needs people have. We also recognise that the system needs to deal with fluctuating conditions and that is one of the things we need to really lock down in consultation in the next 12 months.

Even where awards of PIP are made for a fixed term and periodic reassessment is required, it will be proportionate. Some assessments may only involve scrutiny of paper evidence and will not require face-to-face consultation. That will particularly be the case where there is considerable supporting evidence on which to base decisions. Conditions or impairments that are lifelong or degenerative will have such supporting evidence. Clearly, we are going to provide guidance on the duration of an award, including when an ongoing award would be appropriate and with what frequency that award would be reviewed. That will be evidence-based and we are committed to coproducing it with the appropriate experts in the field. I assure noble Lords that we are keen to involve disabled people and their representatives in this process. We are determined to get it right.

I have to make the point that lifetime awards were abolished in 2001 and only in very rare circumstances would they be reviewed. At the moment in DLA, we have indefinite awards that can be reviewed at any time. On the other point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on the national benefit review, the only group excluded from that is the awards made to the terminally ill.

I hope that I have reassured noble Lords on the issue. There is still a lot of work to be done in this area. We will look to organisations that help us, including those with which the noble Lord, Lord Rix, is associated. However, before I ask him to withdraw his amendment, I must make clear the technicality that the Government do not consider that Amendment 56 is directly consequential on Amendment 55, so they are separate matters. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Rix]

Yes, at this hour of the night. I would love to have further discussion, if it is humanly possible, with the Minister, but I would like to get something on paper to be able to circulate to the people concerned.

[Lord Freud]

I can certainly write to the noble Lord on this matter and see what we can do with the paperwork.

[Lord Rix]

With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the government amendments are intended to support our plans for a sensible, achievable and measured approach to the introduction of PIP and to report on the effectiveness of the assessment. I went into detail on what we are planning earlier this evening, so I do not need to dwell on it too long.

The first amendment will allow us to test the processes in a truly live environment and gives us the ability to control where those early new claims will come from. We are looking at which sites to use and developing the detail.

The second is designed to support our programme of examining how PIP works against the assessment. In summary, as I said, I propose to put into the Bill a statutory duty to publish two reports to Parliament—the first within two years from the time that PIP starts, the second within four years of that date. I also made the commitment earlier this evening, which I repeat, that if there is a need for a third review and report because of ongoing issues identified in the second review, we undertake to do that. That is a commitment to ensure that the assessment and its processes are working. We have slightly adapted the idea of doing that annually, which is what happens under WCA, because that has led to a slightly piecemeal approach. We think that two-year reviews will be better and we have learnt from that.

These are sensible and practical amendments. They are of course inspired by noble Lords in Committee, whose arguments convinced me. I have already put it on record that I think that Committee Members did a fantastic job and went through the Bill in an organised, diligent manner with astonishing energy. I have tried to take all the good ideas possible—some of them are not, but I am really pleased to be able to take this one.

The Government consider Amendment 56ZB to be directly consequential on Amendment 56ZA, but do not consider Amendment 70 in this group to be directly consequential on Amendment 56ZA. Despite that, I beg to move.

[Lord Rix]

My Lords, the Minister gave the shortest reply in Committee, interrupting my amendments, and I sat down within about three seconds of standing up. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis—I have the name right this time—said that if the rest of the amendments could be taken at that speed, we would have got through the Committee stage much faster. I am absolutely delighted that the amendments have been modified but certainly accepted by the Government. I am very grateful.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Rix and Lord Freud

Monday 21st November 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Rix]

My Lords, the purpose of this amendment and Amendment 88 would be to introduce a biennial independent review of the personal independence payment for the first six years after it comes into force. The amendments also aim to require the report within two years of PIP being implemented, not the three years as proposed in the Bill. As your Lordships will be aware, the Bill already provides for a single independent review of the PIP assessment, with a report that must be presented to Parliament. While this is welcome, given the impact of the new assessment on many disabled people—particularly those with a learning disability—I believe that more than one review would be necessary.

Indeed, the precedent for having more than one review has already been established. The work capability assessment is subject to an annual independent review for the first five years of its operation, as laid out in the Welfare Reform Act 2007. The experience of the work capability assessment has shown the benefits of an ongoing independent review, although I acknowledge that the yearly requirement has meant insufficient time for the introduction of one review’s proposals before the next commences. Hence, I am calling for the PIP review to take place on a biennial basis only. During discussion on this matter in the Commons, it was noted by the Government that the proposed one-off report is just one way of “close working and testing” the implementation of the new measure. However, I am concerned that this does not necessarily guarantee a fully fit-for-purpose assessment.

The independent review of the WCA has shown a process that is not working as it should be. If a similar scenario is revealed for the PIP assessment, the Government should act swiftly to ensure that disabled people are appropriately supported and not denied the assistance they need to live more independently. I believe a biennial review would help to make this happen. Indeed, on a more positive note, if PIP is to be as successful as the Government claim it is going to be, Ministers would then have a valuable opportunity to showcase this in Parliament and more widely across the country, which—in these rather hard-pressed times for the Government on this Bill—must surely be a welcome boost both to the Government and to Ministers. I beg to move.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, perhaps I may be permitted to make an early intervention here in order to offer to take this matter away and return on Report. The Government fully agree with noble Lords on the need for robust independent evaluation of how the assessment works in practice and of the value that Professor Harrington has added through his reviews of the work capability assessment. While we had not intended legislating for multiple reviews of PIP, we are not averse to them. Given the strength of opinion that I know exists on this issue, I will take it away to see what I can do before Report. Although I cannot promise here and now that I can agree to exactly the formulation in these amendments, I will do all that I can to satisfy noble Lords on this matter.

I hope that this statement also deals with my noble friend Lord German’s concern, which I believe may lie behind his Amendments 98ZA and 98ZB. Given this assurance, I urge noble Lords to withdraw their amendments.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, as my fire has been taken away from me by the Minister, perhaps I may at least be allowed to say thank you. In consideration of this matter—and obviously consideration can come to a positive outcome, but not necessarily—the one initial fact that I would ask the Minister to take on board is that other circumstances can change in parallel with this—the general economy and other legislation—which may make it beneficial for reviews to take place more frequently. However, I will not press an open door.

Autism: Personal Independence Payments

Debate between Lord Rix and Lord Freud

Monday 12th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My noble friend makes the very good point that there has been continual disappointment in that area of assessment. We are beginning to learn how to do that better. Professor Harrington, in the context of a different assessment—the WCA—is pointing us in the right direction in getting information and support for people when they are being assessed.

[Lord Rix]

My Lords, what assurance can the Minister give that problems similar to those that have arisen on work capability assessments will not arise on PIP assessments, particularly in the light of people who take these assessments with a learning disability?

Disabled People: Disability Living Allowance

Debate between Lord Rix and Lord Freud

Monday 7th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that we need to have a pretty broad view on what mobility implies. One of the big differences between the personal independence payment and DLA is that the personal independence payment looks at the person’s ability to plan and execute a journey, not just at their physical capacity. One of the big differences with the personal independence payment is that it puts a lot more emphasis on mental competences compared with physical ones, or it raises those competences in relative terms. Many of those adaptations are clearly for physical requirements; others, the ones to meet mental requirements, will be taken much more into account.

[Lord Rix]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has already referred to the statement, “We’re all in this together”. In that statement, were the Government including the 80,000 people with disabilities living in residential care who are going to lose the mobility component of their DLA, or were the Government simply thinking that such a valuable aid to so many vulnerable people was a total waste of taxpayers’ money?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are taking a very close look at the mobility requirements of people in residential care. The existing arrangements are pretty patchy; the payments are used for different purposes in different places and are often pooled in a way that they are not designed for, in a very complex regulatory framework. We will be looking very closely, as part of the consultation exercise, at what the best form of support should be for people in residential care in this way.

Disabled People

Debate between Lord Rix and Lord Freud

Monday 13th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, perhaps I may first say on behalf of the whole House how much we look forward to seeing the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell, back in her place alongside the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins.

The issue of the mobility allowance was raised in the context of the comprehensive spending review. At that stage the proposal had not gone through a full consultation process, but one would not expect all the measures in such a huge announcement to have gone through the full process. However, the measures will go through a process of full parliamentary scrutiny before they take effect in October 2012. The DLA reform document has also been put out to consultation, on which there have already been discussions with about 50 representative organisations. Those discussions will continue.

[Lord Rix]

My Lords, in the comprehensive spending review the Government allocated £2 billion more for local authority social care services. Unfortunately, this money was not ring-fenced. What assurances can the Government give the House that the money will be spent by local authorities on the purpose for which it was allocated?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the Government’s strategy is to go down the path of personalisation of services, on which we clearly look to local authorities to take the lead. As the noble Lord pointed out, we have made £2 billion extra available. In practice, local authorities have much more than that available and it is up to them to make sure that the funds go to those with disabilities in the most effective and efficient way.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Lord Rix and Lord Freud

Monday 6th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, there are some extraordinary claims being made around these measures. There are some heroic assumptions in the Shelter figures. For instance, they are based on an average shortfall of £18 a week, which is well above what the shortfall will be. I should point out that 40 per cent of people in the private rental sector move every year and 70 per cent move within three years.

[Lord Rix]

What advice can the Minister offer people with a learning disability, who might find that they can no longer pay rents, which are increasing all the time, particularly in the London area? Does he think it appropriate that the Government should inflict trauma on people less able to cope with that trauma, some of them very vulnerable indeed?

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, the Government are fully aware that some people will have to make adjustments in their living arrangements. That is why we have put a large amount of resource into helping that transition process. The current figure, which we announced last week, has been increased by another £50 million to a total of £190 million over the SR 2010 period.