Dog Control Bill [HL]

Lord Richard Excerpts

Friday 10th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, I was slightly taken aback by that exciting debate. I realise that I am obviously winning the argument this morning.

Amendment 2 deals with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, during the previous debate and rectifies a drafting error within paragraph 3(3) of the Schedule. As the Bill covers both England and Wales, “Secretary of State” has been removed and “appropriate national authority” has been included in its place. I do not intend to speak a great deal on this issue, but it does show the value of being able to use the knowledge of this House to scrutinise and pick out issues that are difficult to spot for those putting forward Private Members’ Bills. I thank all those, especially those from the dangerous dogs study group, who have taken part in helping with the amendments.

I very much hope that, at the next stage of the Bill, we will receive some indication from the Government that their position may change and move forward, especially considering the results of the consultation, to which 4,500 have replied.

On that basis, I beg to move.

[Lord Richard]

As the noble Lord was kind enough to refer to me, perhaps I may briefly respond. I have to say that I do not think that this is a very well-drafted, apposite or timely Bill, but on the other hand I think that the thrust of it is good. What the noble Lord is trying to achieve on the whole might be a desirable thing. However, the one thing he will not be able to do is legislate in this way by means of a Private Member’s Bill. He has done a service to the House in exposing both sides of the argument, and it is now for the Government to decide whether they wish to pick up this issue and deal with it. As far as I am concerned, it is an issue that the Government ought to deal with. I know that we are considering a specific Private Member’s Bill—as your Lordships may have gathered, I am not too keen on the actual Bill itself—but, nevertheless, it does seem to me an issue that the Government ought to take seriously and look at.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley)]

I was rather hoping that I would be able to get away without intervening at all. The Government have made their views fairly clear at both Second Reading and in Committee, when my noble friend Lord De Mauley dealt with this Bill. I will say very briefly again that we cannot give our support to this Bill, but we are well aware of the problems that it is addressing and are prepared to consider moving forward in due course.

As my noble friend Lord Redesdale mentioned, the House will be aware of the consultation issued by the previous Government towards the end of their 13 years in office—I think it was issued in about March 2010, just before the general election—and that concluded in June 2010. There were some 4,250 responses to that consultation, which Ministers are still considering. We published a summary of those responses in November 2010, and, as I said, we are still considering the right way forward. It is a matter that we want to discuss across government, because these matters are not just for Defra but for the Home Office and others. In due course, I hope that we will be able to have something to say, but we will not offer support to this Bill. It might be that, when the noble Lord seeks a Third Reading and moves that the Bill do now pass, that might be a moment when I might be able to say a little more. However, as I have made clear and as we made clear on earlier occasions, we cannot offer support to this Bill.

[Lord Richard]

Before the Minister sits down, can I ask him to clarify that, with regards to this Bill, “in due course” means that we will hear something on Third Reading?

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Richard Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

I finally revert to my Wykehamist paradise. A fellow Wykehamist, who is, alas, no longer with us, was Lord Whitelaw. As we have heard, it was he who established the body about which we are talking. Others have wisely said that every Prime Minister needs a Willie. That was my noble friend Lady Thatcher. We need a Willie now who will take account of what the real Willie said not all that long ago. He created S4C and would be turning and revolving in his grave, whether speaking Latin or English, in his denunciation of this proposal. I am not very good at Latin, but he would repudiate altogether a decision by this Government to include this organisation in this legislation.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, I detect that the atmosphere in the House is that we are anxious to get on, listen to the Minister and hear what the Government have to say. I therefore wish to give her two or three sentences of advice and then sit down.

First, I say to the Government: do not underestimate the importance of this issue in Wales. Do not do that, because the whole idea behind Lord Whitelaw establishing S4C was to take the sting out of the argument about the position and the future of the Welsh language. Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, I was not brought up to speak Welsh but I was brought up in a very Welsh-speaking part of Wales. My father spoke fluent Welsh; his father was a Methodist preacher, as was his father. I come from a long line of non-conformist divines. However, the fact of the matter is that my mother came from Cardiff and we therefore did not speak Welsh at home, although we spoke Welsh in the village.

All that I can say to the Government is that this matters in Wales. It is not a question of pounds, shillings and pence or the cash. It matters to Wales that there is now a television channel that broadcasts in the natural language of the Principality and our nation and it needs to be preserved. The idea that in a Bill dealing with quangos the Government can come along and suddenly thrust in this proposal regarding S4C is frankly ludicrous. The Government should be ashamed of doing it in this way. If they have views about S4C, they should produce a Green Paper or a White Paper, or whatever, and consult the people in Wales who are interested—in particular, the National Assembly. To strike a potential blow at the Welsh language and its future in Wales in this way is absolutely disgraceful.

[Lord Sanderson of Bowden]

My Lords, I had not intended to take part in this debate because I come from Scotland. However, I was encouraged by the noble Lord, Lord Nickson, putting his foot in the water. I appeal to the Minister, whom I know from times past has had a very successful time in party politics, to think very carefully before he jumps into this deep water. I remember only too well the times when Lord Whitelaw was dealing with this very tricky issue. Something about Lord Whitelaw that we all appreciated was that he would say: “Hold on a minute, let us see what the outcome is going to be. If there is a real case to be answered, let us hear it”. He heard it and took his decision thereafter—and persuaded the Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, to take the same view. I urge the Minister, in the words of the Scottish anthem, “tae think again”.

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to speak in the debate. I say to all noble Lords who have taken part a great big diolch yn fawr. I am not a Welsh speaker, unfortunately, and can only say little things like that. However, I am sure that the Minister will appreciate the strength of feeling in the passionate speeches that we heard from so many experienced noble Lords from Wales and elsewhere. It has been good to hear them.

S4C is a unique example of public service broadcasting devoted to representing Wales through the medium of the Welsh language. The status of the language and culture of Wales is of great importance to Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers alike. My noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely spoke of the importance of the Welsh language channel for young people.

[Lord Richard]

My noble friend is making a speech from the Front Bench. With great respect, the Minister ought to have the courtesy to listen to it.

[Baroness Gale]

I was commenting on what my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely said about the importance of the Welsh language channel in respect of young people who speak Welsh, and children in particular. It is the only channel that caters for Welsh-speaking children. My noble friend Lord Rowlands spoke about the development of the medium schools in Wales. They have been a great success in Merthyr and in all the valley constituencies. I speak from experience as I sent my children there and I am proud to say that they are fluent Welsh speakers. Their children are, too. My children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren all speak Welsh, so, although I cannot speak it myself, I can say that I have done my bit for the language. S4C has also helped to develop their language skills. Many of the pre-school children’s programmes are absolutely great, and children do not have to be Welsh speakers to listen to them. Therefore, S4C plays a very important role at all stages of a Welsh person’s life.

From the views that have been expressed this afternoon, I think that the Public Bodies Bill is perceived as a threat to the very existence of S4C. That view can also be seen in the many letters that I, and I am sure many other noble Lords, have received from individuals and organisations in Wales. Of course, they have all been bilingual letters. Understandably, small businesses in Wales, particularly those in the creative industries, are very anxious about what this decision means for them. Therefore, there is much concern about the future of S4C in Wales.

In his evidence on S4C to the Welsh Affairs Committee on 18 January, the Culture Minister, Ed Vaizey, admitted that he had no specific Welsh-based adviser giving him a Welsh overview, although he said that he had had informal discussions with former Secretaries of State for Wales. He also admitted that he had not spoken on this matter to Nick Bourne, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives in the Welsh Assembly. When asked whether he had ever watched S4C, he said that he had watched “Fireman Sam”. As this is a children’s programme in English, I do not think he would have gained much knowledge from it if that was his only viewing of S4C. With the Culture Minister having so little knowledge about Wales and the importance of S4C to the culture and language of Wales, is it any wonder that we are having such a debate today, showing, as it does, the strength of feeling on this matter?

Does the Minister agree that there has been no consultation with the Welsh Assembly Government or with S4C itself? It has been mentioned that the four party leaders in Wales wrote to the Prime Minister in October calling for an independent review commissioned jointly by the UK Government and the Welsh Assembly Government. The four leaders were seeking a review into the future of S4C because, as we have heard this afternoon, there seems to have been a problem with the Government’s approach. Such a review would examine all aspects relating to the governance and regulatory oversight of S4C, including the question of where political responsibility should lie, and it would seek to ensure that the channel remained independent. The review would also seek to secure a substantial funding stream for the channel. I do not know what has become of this letter or whether there has been any discussion with the Minister on it. Perhaps he will be able to tell us.

Surely there must be a much better way of going forward than the way in which the Government are dealing with S4C in this Bill. I think that there is general consensus around the Committee that S4C should not be included in the Bill. Can the Minister allay fears that these measures, if implemented, could mean the end of S4C as an independent broadcaster? Many have mentioned the funding issues. They will of course need to be looked at and some solution will need to be found.

I hope that the Minister has listened carefully to the grave concerns that have been expressed all around the Committee. I am sure that by now he will understand the strength of feeling that Welsh people have regarding S4C. It is seen as one of the national assets of Wales. Therefore, I hope that, as others have mentioned, the Minister will be able to have discussions with all of us between now and Report with a view to finding a solution to this matter.