Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Report stage
Wednesday 26th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My apologies—I thank the noble Baroness. I meant “pariah”. In terms of being an international outlier, many other countries have minimum service levels. I will give the House some examples. In the USA, ambulance workers are in most circumstances prohibited from taking any action; it is the same in Australia; in Canada, there is variation by province; Spain and France have statutory minimum service levels in ambulance services; Belgium has statutory MSLs. All these requirements are laid down in law.

In the USA, Australia and Canada, for fire services action is prohibited completely by law. Nobody in the UK is suggesting that we go that far. I accept that noble Lords opposite will not mind the example of the USA, but, last time I looked, Australia and Canada both had centre-left Governments. Yet they ban strike action completely in fire services. So the UK is not an international outlier in considering these MSLs. Spain, France and Belgium have statutory MSLs in fire services. I have no idea who is in government in Belgium at the moment—there is normally some sort of 20-party coalition—but nevertheless these are not hard-right Governments with complete freedom of action against workers. It is not unusual in international terms to consider MSLs.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for answering an allegation that was not made by my noble friend. His point was that we were an outlier or pariah not because we had minimum service levels but because we were the only country with minimum service levels that was applying the sorts of terms and conditions that are objected to in the proposed amendments. That is quite a different thing from the argument about minimum service levels.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not think it is a different thing at all. If action is prohibited completely, as it is in the three countries I mentioned—let us take, for example, fire services—there is no provision for workers to take any strike action at all. If they do so, they are in breach of their contracts—presumably they can be dismissed, in those countries. I think the comparison is completely valid.

I turn to the amendments. To achieve a minimum service level, employers, employees and trade unions all have a part to play, in our view, and the Bill makes it clear what those respective roles are. The amendments in this group would remove key parts of the legislation, which we believe are necessary to make it effective, and I suspect that is the aim of those who tabled them. As such, I take the same position as I did in Committee and resist these amendments.

Amendment 4 seeks to remove the consequences for an employee who participates in strike action while being identified in a work notice. The approach taken is both fair and proportionate. It enables employers to manage instances of non-compliance with a work notice in exactly the same way that they would manage any other unauthorised absence. I repeat the point for the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Collins: this is not about sacking workers, nurses or anyone else. An employee loses their automatic protection from unfair dismissal for industrial action if they participated in a strike contrary to a work notice, as indeed they would lose their unfair dismissal rights if they participated in any other form of strike action that was not in accordance with the law, just as failing to attend work without a valid reason does not necessarily mean that they will be dismissed. It simply enables employers to pursue disciplinary action if they believe it is appropriate, but it is ultimately at their discretion whether or not to do so.

Amendment 4 also provides that individuals identified in a work notice are not subject to the work notice unless they have been given a copy of it, and the employer must prove that the individual has received it. However, under the current drafting, employees lose their automatic unfair dismissal protection for going on strike in contravention of a work notice only if the employer notifies them that they are required to work under a work notice and of the work that they must carry out. I believe that this additional requirement is both unnecessary and duplicative; it could also be inappropriate as workers could be given a work notice which identifies thousands of other workers.

Amendment 5 seeks to ensure that unions have no responsibility for ensuring that their members do not participate in strike action and attend work instead if they have been named on a work notice. It also ensures that there are no consequences for failing to meet that responsibility. I suspect this is an attempt to disrupt the balance between the ability to strike and the rights and freedoms of others to go about their lawful business, which is ultimately at the heart of the Bill.

If employees are not incentivised to attend work on a strike day when they have been identified on work notice, or if a trade union has no responsibility to ensure that its members comply, the effectiveness of this legislation will be severely undermined. I suspect noble Lords opposite know that their amendments will do exactly that, and I am sure it is therefore no surprise to them that I cannot support them on this occasion. Given the direct disruption that these amendments will have on the ability of the public to go about their normal, lawful business, I ask noble Lords—without too much optimism—to feel free to not press their amendments.

Horizon Europe

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Thursday 7th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I can indeed give the noble Lord that assurance. The money is a direct replacement and will go to research, but our preference remains to associate to Horizon Europe, if possible. With regard to ARIA, the noble Lord can expect some announcements on the chairman and chief executive fairly soon.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that this is not just a question of money? Scientific advance depends on international collaboration, networking, exchange of information and so on. Does he accept the gravity of the present situation? Universities are the seed funding of any solution to the productivity issue that is central to economic recovery. At the moment, however, we are cutting ourselves off from Europe, we are suspicious of China and we are introducing a range of legislation, not least the National Security and Investment Act, that will bring great concern and instability to our universities. What measures are the Government taking to address the gravity of that crisis and to assuage that instability, particularly in our institutions of higher education?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

There were many different questions there. First, I agree with the noble Lord about the importance of international science collaboration. Secondly, we are not cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world. We remain keen to associate to Horizon Europe and co-operate with other scientific nations across the world. Thirdly, I do not agree with his point about the National Security and Investment Act causing problems for universities. The system is working extremely well and applications are being approved smoothly, as he will see if he looks at the recently produced annual report.

COP 26

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord, then, will have welcomed our announcement today that will generate the tens of thousands of jobs to which he refers. The idea of the campaign, of course, is to try to educate and change behaviour.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister not accept that the Prime Minister’s new 10-point plan is not a plan but a wish list of future developments based on undeveloped technology? It is not new, because it is largely recycled commitments and resources. Will he confirm that the actual new, additional amount is £4 billion—not £12 billion—which does not begin to address the scale of the problem and does not bear comparison with our colleagues in France, Germany and elsewhere?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am not sure that the noble Lord is being entirely fair with his critique of the announcement. Many of the initiatives are based on new and existing technologies. We are building on many of the initiatives that we already have going, for instance the green homes grants system, which is proving so successful and popular and is building on an existing scheme. I think that noble Lords in many parts of the House would accept that we should go further on things such as hydrogen and elsewhere.

Oil: Changes in Global Markets

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Thursday 21st May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

At the time of the Scottish independence referendum, oil was running at over $100 a barrel. Given the steep fall in the price of oil, what estimates, if any, have the Government made of the present state of the Scottish economy with respect to strengths or fragility?

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord makes a powerful point. The independence plans of the SNP have been thrown into disarray by the low oil price—we all know the economic forecasts it made at the time. We are of course in close contact and collaboration with the Scottish Government on all these matters. We will continue to assist and help them in their plans going forward.

Brexit

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Saturday 19th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to close this historic debate on behalf of the Government. Before I get on with the main content, it is important to say that, as my noble friend Lord Lamont announced in his speech, the House of Commons has passed the Letwin amendment. Following the vote, the Prime Minister addressed the other place. For the benefit of noble Lords who may not have heard him, he said that the best thing for Britain and Europe is for us to leave with this new deal on 31 October. He went on to say that he will not negotiate a delay with the EU and neither does the law compel him to do so. The Prime Minister will tell the EU and member states exactly what he has told everyone for his 88 days as Prime Minister: further delay would be bad for this country, for the EU and for democracy. Next week, the Government will introduce the legislation needed for us to the leave the EU with our new deal on 31 October. The Prime Minister—

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords—

[Lord Callanan]

I will complete my remarks, then I will take an intervention. The Prime Minister said that he hopes our European colleagues will reject delay and, if they do, that honourable Members will change their minds and support this new deal in overwhelming numbers.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

I am grateful to the Minister. I followed his words carefully. The Prime Minister has said that he will not “negotiate” a delay with the European Union. Can the Minister tell us whether the Prime Minister will send a letter requesting an extension, as he is obliged to do by law?

[Lord Callanan]

As I have said a number of times, to the boredom of noble Lords, we will of course abide by the law. The requirement—

Brexit: Parliamentary Processes

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Thursday 3rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The Government have in mind that we will attempt to negotiate a new and improved deal with the European Union that will enable the referendum result to be respected. Beyond that, we will abide by the law.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Will the Minister do the House the courtesy of trying to answer the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack? How do the Government intend to reconcile the apparently irreconcilable positions of potentially crashing out of Europe on 31 October and adhering to the law that says that, if an agreement has not been reached by 19 October, then the Government must ask for an extension? I am sure that Downing Street has a cunning plan—or at least a Cummings plan—to reconcile the irreconcilables, but can the Minister at least give this House the guarantee that the Government will abide not just by the letter but by the spirit of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act? In view of the Supreme Court judgment, he should be in a position to give the House that very guarantee.

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord was obviously a loss to stand-up comedy. I repeat the assurances that I gave that the Government will of course at all times abide by the law. I have to say that, if the Opposition spent half as much time helping us to negotiate a better deal as they do undermining our negotiating position, we might be able to get a deal that we could all get behind and we would not have to go near obsessing about the provisions of the Benn Act.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 9th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, we have come a long way to respect and deliver on the result of the referendum. This House has scrutinised and contributed to a number of Bills which will guarantee that the UK continues to have a functioning statute book after exit day.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Why should the British people have any confidence in the Government’s capacity to produce what the Minister said they wanted—clarity and stability—when the most glaring recent example of the Government’s capabilities was to hire a firm to supply ferries which had no ferries? If the Secretary of State for Transport really wanted an organisation that had no ships, he could have asked the Royal Navy.

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his amusing contribution. I am sure that many noble Lords would disagree with his assessment of the capabilities of our excellent Navy. We make no apologies whatever for preparing for a no-deal situation. The exit date was legislated for in the notification of withdrawal Act and in the EU withdrawal Act last year. We will be leaving the EU on 29 March next year.

Brexit: Proposed Agreement

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 14th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I agree with my noble friend; a little calmness on all sides would help a lot. But it is amazing to see the number of people rushing to judge something that they have not read yet.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, to have a meaningful vote, the House of Commons has insisted that it must have full information on the legal implications, impact assessments and future economic projections, otherwise it will not be meaningful. None of that was available at the time of the last referendum. In the event of a logjam in Parliament, which seems at least possible, why will the Government not allow the people, in the light of all that information, to have the final say on this issue?

[Lord Callanan]

I set out in my reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, what information we will make available. Of course, the House of Commons needs to come to its judgment in the light of all the available information and studies, and we will provide that. But I reiterate that we will not hold a second referendum; we have already had one, the people reached their view and we are implementing that view.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

If my noble friend will forgive me, I will concentrate on the amendments before us and leave this existential debate for my two noble friends on the Back Benches to conduct among themselves.

The approval of the UK’s final deal with the EU has already been the focus of a great deal of sustained debate during the passage of both the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act and this Bill. The Government have committed to hold a vote on the final deal in Parliament as soon as possible after the negotiations have concluded. Let me say, in direct response to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Baroness, Lady McDonagh, that this vote will take the form of a resolution in both Houses of Parliament and will cover both the withdrawal agreement and the terms of our future relationship. The Government will not implement any parts of the withdrawal agreement until after this vote has taken place.

As we have repeatedly made clear, we fully expect, intend and will make every effort that this vote will take place before the European Parliament votes. However, I hope noble Lords will understand that we do not control the EU’s timeframe for approving the withdrawal agreement and therefore cannot make any statutory assurances where it is concerned. This would be the case with Amendment 150 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, Amendment 151 tabled by my noble friend Lord Cormack and Amendment 216 tabled by my noble friend Lord Hailsham.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

A much wiser and older head than me, Merlyn Rees, once told me that, when listening to a Minister’s replies, I should forget everything before the “but”; I include in that everything before the “however”. What follows the “however” gives the Government executive powers to take a course of action completely opposite to the amendments that say that a vote should be done before the European Parliament votes. Of course the Government do not control the timetable for the European Parliament, but they control the timetable for this Parliament. We are asking for the vote to be given substance and time—rather than being a theoretical meaningful vote—as well as an assurance that the decision will be taken by this Parliament before we have to sit and watch the European Parliament voting on the deal. Can the Minister address that issue and explain to us why it is impossible to do that simple thing?

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

Let us take it one step at a time.

[Lord Callanan]

In response to the noble Viscount’s final question, no, there will be no vote in national parliaments on this matter: it is a delegated function to the EU. Only a qualified majority vote in the European Council is required, and then a vote in the European Parliament. I can go no further in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Reid, than to repeat my statement that we expect and intend the vote to take place before the vote in the European Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

My Lords, we will discuss the appropriateness of a second referendum later today—

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

The Minister has just, perhaps inadvertently, said something of profound constitutional consequence. Is he asserting from that Dispatch Box that parliamentary representative democracy is no longer sovereign if there is a plebiscite? This is an extremely important constitutional issue and he has just made that assertion. Would he like to withdraw the assertion or to reassert that parliamentary democracy is no longer sovereign?

[Lord Callanan]

I am asserting that Parliament voted to hold a referendum. The referendum took place, and we all know the result. We believe that that referendum should be respected. I am sorry that noble Lords do not agree with me, but that is the Government’s position.

Southern Rail: Gibb Report

Debate between Lord Reid of Cardowan and Lord Callanan

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

No—I suspect that they will not be.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

To help the House, will the Minister remind us when and by whom the decision was taken to separate control of the track from control of the trains and to privatise them separately?

[Lord Callanan]

It was taken, as my noble friend reminds me, by the John Major Government. But I see no evidence that the Labour Party policy of renationalising the railways and handing even more power to their friends in ASLEF and the RMT will bring any improvement for passengers whatever. It will enable them to hold the whole country to ransom, rather than just the poor miserable passengers on Southern rail.