Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Redesdale and Lord Howarth of Newport
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I would like to support what has already been said by my noble friend Lord Stevenson, the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge.
Article 19 of the convention, drafted 60 or so years ago, simply does not contemplate today’s realities. It addresses itself to situations of civil war. Of course, there is a civil war in Syria, but, although Daesh pretends to be a state, it is not a state. Not being a state, neither Daesh nor the Taliban nor Boko Haram can be covered by the provisions of the convention. So the formulation of international law is seriously defective in enabling the international community to address itself to the most appalling instances of iconoclasm and the systematic and strategic destruction of cultural heritage. That, of course, is what so many of us and so many members of the public are most intensely concerned about.
I think that they would be startled to think, as was said at Second Reading, that here we are legislating and in some sense playing an air shot; we simply are missing the ball. Of course it is right to implement the convention as it stands—nothing should disrupt that process—but I hope that when the Minister responds to this debate she will be able to tell us what the Government as a whole, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport intend to do in developing international discussions and diplomacy to move towards the possible creation of a third protocol. It could take a considerable amount of time but the very fact that there was momentum in that direction—momentum initiated by our own Government—would be an excellent thing and is really important in terms of the crisis that the world faces.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, while I support the idea of changing international law, we have waited 60 years for this treaty to be ratified by the Government and if we had to wait for the same period of time for the convention—if it happened tomorrow—I would be about 120. So I think it is a wonderful idea to come forward, and of course the irony is not lost that we are talking about ratifying one treaty while of course most of the thoughts in this place are about another treaty.
I will ask the Minister one thing on the specific problem of the situation whereby much of the cultural heritage being targeted by non-state groups happens in areas we know are destabilised already—and of course, the formation of the cultural protection fund is a way of actually protecting some of those issues. But could the Minister say what proactive measures are put in place in the formation of the cultural protection fund to make sure that culture we know is under threat is being protected? Of course, we discussed digital archives. One wonderful way of doing it is digitally archiving all the archives around the world or helping museums to protect their archives. Of course, as in the case of the museum in Baghdad, that was a problem in itself because they wanted to loot the archive to find out what they could steal. That of course is an issue that will come forward and while we are in the position of forming the cultural protection fund, I very much hope that the Minister can give some indication that we will be taking the issue of pre-emptive knowledge very seriously, rather than trying to reconstruct what has been destroyed.
Lord Redesdale
My Lords, while I quite understand the good intention in questioning this provision, I have some difficulty with the idea behind the amendment because the convention was ratified in 1954 and you cannot have retrospective legislation. This refers to artefacts brought into the country after 1954 that would be affected only if their provenance cannot be proved. That is where I have real difficulty, because one issue with illicit antiquities is that we do not know their provenance, so if they have been taken from a site—or, in the case of Syria and Iraq, looted, even—the actual context of those objects has been destroyed. While the objects themselves might be considerable works of art and were probably created as such, that does not mean they have value in their own right. They might have financial value, but there is a duty of care on museum staff or those dealing in this subject to make sure that such objects are not covered by this statute. There can be very few articles which could not have a 1954 provenance. Many museums would not accept articles which did not have a provenance going back before 1954, and while I understand the concern that has been expressed, the really big problem is making sure where these objects come from in the first place. One of the reasons Daesh is selling these objects now is that nobody is questioning where they came from.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I am very sympathetic to the objectives of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. He raises an important practical consideration: how are those operating in the marketplace, or being asked to advise on or deal in particular objects, to satisfy themselves that they are in conformity with the legislation and are doing the right thing? I imagine that the answer lies partly in the promulgation of standards by professional bodies such as the Museums Association and the British Antique Dealers’ Association —and of course the Department for Culture, Media and Sport itself, which issues guidance on these matters and will no doubt wish to ensure that it is up to date. Training, methods of professional qualification and the certification of institutions and so forth all have a part to play. However, it would be helpful if the Minister gave us some idea of how the Government envisage that people who wish to act responsibly, professionally and properly can be confident they are in fact doing so.