Health and Social Care (Safety and Quality) Bill

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Friday 6th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am sure that anything is possible, but I would hesitate before giving a commitment along those lines because it seems to me too granular to be included in statutory regulations rather than in guidance or best-practice manuals.

[Lord Rea (Lab)]

Perhaps I may be the third Member of the House to ask the Minister to answer a question before he sits down. There has been a lot of talk about there being no government time properly to discuss many issues that have been brought up in this debate. The Minister did not answer the point made by my noble friend Lord Hunt, but there is very little government legislation in the pipe now and time could almost certainly be found. I accept that Private Members’ Bills are normally considered only on Fridays—there are not very many Fridays left—but, as this Bill is a quasi-government Bill, I feel that perhaps the Government could make time for it.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is aware that the timetabling of business is not a matter for the Government. My understanding from the usual channels is that Private Members’ Bills cannot be given government time or priority treatment. However, I have no doubt that, having listened to the comments made in this debate from all sides of the House, the usual channels will wish to have further discussions.

NHS: London

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

I do not think that it is appropriate to talk about downgrading in this case. However, it is appropriate to talk about changing the way in which services are delivered to the local population. In the case of two hospitals, we are seeing fully fledged A&E departments becoming 24/7 urgent care centres. That means that the most serious A&E cases, such as trauma and cardiovascular emergencies, will be taken to centres of excellence where patients will have a much higher chance of survival. That is a pattern that we are seeing throughout the NHS and one that has been proved to be successful and in the interests of patients. On ambulances services, we are already seeing in London, for example with stroke care, ambulances taking patients to centres of excellence for stroke care. Eight of these centres now exist compared to 32 some years ago. That means longer journeys in an ambulance but also much higher survival rates for the patients. I do not think that we should look on the kind of reconfiguration that I have described in a negative way. On the contrary, the whole thrust of these proposals is to improve the quality of care for patients.

[Lord Rea (Lab)]

The noble Earl said that, as part of this reconfiguration, there will an increase in the services available in the community. Can he say whether this will be done in co-operation with the royal colleges and the British Medical Association rather than being imposed from above? The latter solution is unlikely to work.

[Earl Howe]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. These solutions should not be imposed from above. Indeed, the Shaping a Healthier Future proposals were designed by local clinicians in consultation with their patients. It was not a prescription dreamt up in Whitehall. We are very clear that the local NHS should continue to feel local ownership of these ideas as it takes them forward. I have no doubt that, if it feels it necessary, it will turn to the royal colleges for particular kinds of advice. It is free to do that as it wishes.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Wheeler]

My Lords, I shall make a brief intervention in support of the desire of my noble friend Lord Rea to draw our attention to the importance of interprofessional education if we are to develop health and social care staff’s mutual respect, understanding and knowledge of each other’s professions that will bring about the collaboration, joint working and integration of care and support that we need. My noble friend describes this as staff knowing “how the other half lives”—in other words, staff knowing about each other’s services and how they operate, and being aware of boundaries, interdependence on achieving outcomes and competing agendas. He commends IPE because it provides an established model of collaboration and co-operation on the ground.

The amendment refers back to our earlier debate on integration and the need for multidisciplinary teamworking, and it will also be relevant to the debate that we will come to shortly on the importance of continuing professional development for healthcare workers. It adds promoting the use of joint IPE for clinical and social care staff as a matter that HEE must have regard to in relation to its responsibility for promoting the integration of healthcare and health-related provision.

My noble friend helpfully sent me a considerable amount of background information on his amendment in which, as a former HR professional, I was genuinely interested. It included extensive research by the Centre for the Advancement of Interprofessional Education, which my noble friend referred to, supporting the effectiveness of interprofessional education and training. My noble friend also referred to discussions between CAIPE and Health Education England to explore HEE’s role in taking IPE forward and embedding it in professional curricula. This is to be welcomed. Two-thirds of UK universities with two or more undergraduate programmes in health and social care include IPE, so these discussions will be helpful. These programmes cover a wide range of professions, including nursing, social work, physiotherapy, pharmacy, clinical psychology and radiography—all professions that are increasingly required to work flexibly across different care settings as part of multidisciplinary teams.

The Nuffield Trust evaluation of the first year of the inner north-west London integrated pilot that I referred to earlier underlined the importance of staff in multiprofessional teams having a high level of commitment to the pilot as a key factor in improving collaboration across different parts of the local health and care system. However, the evaluation also reminds us of the international evidence that integrated care takes years to develop and that a minimum of three to five years is needed to show impact in relation to patient experience and outcomes. Culture change, moving from silo to collaborative working among professionals, is a slow process, however committed we are to trying to make it work. I look forward to the Minister’s response to my noble friend’s amendment.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, if I may say so, the noble Lord, Lord Rea, has explained his amendment in a very compelling way. Amendment 31 seeks to amend Clause 88(1)(h) so that Health Education England must have regard to the promotion of joint interprofessional education of clinical and social care staff where appropriate. As he is aware, much of the ground on these issues was covered in our earlier debates, when I hope I was able to reassure noble Lords that the Government take this issue very seriously. Clause 88 of the Bill, in listing the matters that Health Education England must have regard to in exercising its functions, is clear that Health Education England must support integration between health and care, and support staff so that they are able to work across different settings in health and social care.

In establishing Health Education England with a multiprofessional remit with responsibility for the development of all the professions, the Government have reinforced the importance of planning and developing staff in an interprofessional manner. As I mentioned, this approach is reinforced further in the Government’s mandate to Health Education England, which places a clear requirement on Health Education England, where appropriate, to develop multidisciplinary education and training programmes. I hope the noble Lord will agree that that is very much consonant with the principles that he was propounding in his contribution.

We entirely appreciate the importance of close working between the professions. I am sure that that is something Health Education England will consider carefully. I will write to the noble Lord if I can add any useful detail once I have had a chance to investigate further the issues that he raised and once I have discussed them with my officials.

However, I point out, as the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, did in our earlier debate, the importance of the recent commitment entered into by 12 of the national leaders of health and care, who signed up to a series of undertakings on how they will help local areas to integrate services. This was the document Integrated Care and Support: Our Shared Commitment—the first ever system-wide shared commitment. That document set out how local areas can use existing structures such as health and well-being boards to bring together local authorities, the NHS, social care providers, education, housing services, public health and others to make further steps towards integration. The ambition here is to make joined-up and co-ordinated health and care the norm. It works towards the first ever agreed definition of what people say good integrated care and support looks and feels like. That will be developed by national voices. There will be new pioneer areas around the country, to be announced in September of this year. One of the 12 partners of that shared commitment is Health Education England.

I hope that the noble Lord will be reassured by what I have said. I am entirely in tune with the spirit of his remarks. I will be happy to write to him if I have further and better particulars to impart, but for now I hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for a very full reply and for the sentiments that he expressed. I shall read with interest his reply in Hansard, and I look forward to any further information that he may send me. I am sure that CAIPE will be very interested to read his remarks, too. I thank the Minister very much. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

NHS: Clinical Commissioning Groups

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, ACRA, the independent committee, will take advice from all relevant quarters. I am sure that the advice it receives will be taken on board. I do not think that there will be a public consultation as such but, if I am wrong about that, I will write to my noble friend.

[Lord Rea]

Will the noble Earl reassure us that this new allocation committee will take fully into account the fact that poor people have worse health and, therefore, in an equitable system, it will cost more to include them in the full services that the NHS can provide? Will he reassure us that that will be taken adequately into account and that proper measurements will be made of the health differences between social classes?

[Earl Howe]

I can give the noble Lord that reassurance. ACRA is not a new committee; it has been long-established, and was a fundamental part of the previous Administration’s approach to funding allocations. I can say to the noble Lord that, by using diagnosis information, the formula that has been adopted for CCGs directly picks up a great deal of the increased prevalence of ill health due to deprivation. It also takes account of the proportion of the population in social housing and in semi-routine occupations, and the number of DLA claimants, which is closely related to deprivation.

NHS: Reconfiguration of Services

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

I do not agree with the noble Lord. Competition issues arise within the health service and the matter in the noble Lord’s Question is specifically a health service issue. There are, of course, competition issues involving the independent sector and the charitable sector as well but that is not the focus here. It was the previous Government who recognised the benefits of competition for patients. Our attitude to it is very pragmatic. The key objective for commissioners is to ensure that patients receive the best possible services irrespective of whether they are from the public, voluntary or private sectors. It is for commissioners working with patients to decide where competition is appropriate. It is a means rather than an end in itself.

[Lord Rea]

There have been recent press reports that Monitor has heard requests from private sector providers of NHS services to be exempt from corporation tax. Can the Minister say what the view of Monitor is on this and what its decision is likely to be?

[Earl Howe]

I am aware of that issue. It is very much in the sights of Monitor as it conducts the fair playing field review which, as the noble Lord will remember, was the product of an amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, and passed in your Lordships’ House. The report that will ensue from that commitment by the Government will be published later this year and I am quite sure it will embrace the point mentioned by the noble Lord.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, Amendments 253, 254 and 255 concern various clinical scientists, particularly clinical physiologists. In Committee, I declared an interest in that I have received skilled care from clinical physiologists for nearly five years in monitoring my pacemaker. From 2008 to 2010, when the previous Government were in office, I asked four Questions for Written Answer, pointing out that the Health Professions Council had recommended in 2004 that clinical scientists be included in its regulatory regime. This recommendation was accepted by the Secretary of State at the time. The Answers that I received respectively from my noble friends Lady Thornton and Lord Darzi said, in impeccable ministerial speak, “This will be done not this year, perhaps next year, but certainly some time”. However, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, suggested in Committee that it would be sufficient to continue the voluntary registration scheme that exists now.

Perhaps I may read a small extract from a note sent to me by the Registration Council for Clinical Physiologists, which compiles a voluntary register. The council states that it has,

“substantial evidence suggesting that voluntary self-regulation is not effective for clinical physiologists. Our register has no power of enforcement and is completely toothless because it cannot protect patients from continuing to be treated by practitioners who have not been registered and who are potentially unfit to practise. Where a complaint is made and upheld about a practitioner, he or she usually ‘disappears’ from the voluntary register, which means it is impossible for the RCCP to do further investigations, while the practitioners under investigation are able to find employment elsewhere”.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, gave an example of precisely that. Surely that should not be allowed to continue, and I hope that the noble Earl will reconsider his position and agree that statutory registration is the way forward for this very important group of skilled health professionals.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the amendments deal with two discrete areas. The first set of amendments relates to our proposal to establish a system of assured voluntary registration and seeks to extend compulsory statutory regulation to clinical perfusionists and clinical physiologists, and to make further amendments to legislation to account for this.

The second set relates to the transfer of the regulation of social workers in England from the General Social Care Council to the Health Professions Council, to the protection of the function of social workers, to the office of the chief social worker and to the approval of the training of best-interests assessors. Also included in this second group is a minor and technical government amendment intended to correct an inconsistency in drafting.

As for assured voluntary registration, the vast majority of workers give the very highest quality of care. However, a minority let patients down. This is a cause for concern for all of us and it is right that there is discussion about how we can ensure high standards of care. The Government’s view is that compulsory statutory regulation is not the only way of achieving this and can detract from the essential responsibility of employers to ensure that any person whom they appoint is suitably trained and competent for the role.

As I reminded the House earlier, there are already existing tiers of regulation that protect service users, including the standards set by the Care Quality Commission and the vetting and barring scheme. We also need to be clear that professional regulation is not a panacea. It is no substitute, as I said previously, for good leadership at every level and the proper management of services. It can also constrain innovation in some circumstances and even the availability of services.

Experience clearly demonstrates that a small number of workers who are subject to compulsory statutory regulation from time to time fail to ensure that their practice is up to date and delivered to the standard that we expect. In these circumstances, it is too often the case that regulation can react only after the event. The regulation of individuals will not prevent another Mid-Staffordshire, but strong and effective leadership of the workforce may do, and we believe that employers and managers who are closest to the point of risk must take responsibility for ensuring standards.

The Government believe that a system of assured voluntary registration will support commissioners, employers and supervisors to deliver their responsibility for assuring standards by providing independently assured standards of conduct and training for those on accredited registers. We believe that this approach will work well for clinical physiologists, clinical perfusionists and other groups of health and social care workers. Here, we are building on the work started under the previous Government.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is right that clinical perfusionists are not subject to statutory regulation, but I assure noble Lords that where failures or risks on the part of clinical perfusionists have been identified in the past, action has been taken action to address them. The Department of Health issued guidance in 1999 that the NHS should use only accredited clinical perfusionists, and further guidance in 2009 that clarified the systems and processes needed to ensure high-quality perfusion services. However, employers, commissioners and patients currently have no objective or independent way of determining how robust the accreditation arrangements are, as they not subject to independent scrutiny. In future, if the voluntary register is accredited by the PSA, they will be subject to such ongoing independent scrutiny.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, asked me about the administration of drugs by perfusionists and compliance with the Medicines Act. Perfusionists cannot prescribe drugs, although they do of course administer perfusions. I would say in my defence to the noble Baroness that compliance with the Medicines Act is rather a technical legal point. If she will allow, I am happy to write to her on that legal position.

Both she and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, indicated their view that voluntary registers already exist and do not work. Voluntary registers do exist, so standards for these professions exist as well. It has to be said that the Department of Health has little if any evidence of a general problem with the standards of practice for these groups, but, as I said previously, we currently have no objective way of saying to employers that if they rely on professionals who are on existing voluntary registers they can be sure that they are meeting appropriate standards. In future, where voluntary registers are accredited by the Professional Standards Authority, that will be possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Rea]

I hope that it is in order to ask the noble Earl a question. When he was talking about the registration and regulation of clinical physiologists, he spent quite a long time saying how voluntary registration could be improved and how good and suitable it was, but he has not actually said why the Government have such a big objection to statutory regulation. I do not quite see why the Government are so unwilling to go ahead immediately with this.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, if the clinical physiologists feel as the noble Lord, Lord Walton, says they do, I would simply urge them to read what I have said about the merits of assured voluntary registration. It is true that this issue has been on the table for a number of years. The difference between the start of that debate and the point that we have now reached is that there is more than one option on the table. Assured voluntary registration did not exist 10 years ago, but it is now about to become a reality. We come back to the basic point that regulation in itself is not a panacea. Those who think it is need to examine those cases where failures of care and services have taken place. It is much more about upskilling people, making sure that employers are aware of their responsibilities and ensuring proper supervision in the care setting.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Monday 13th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, I have a question for the noble Earl on this amendment. What will be the relationship of Public Health England, the national body that will take over the functions of the Health Protection Agency and other areas, to the national Commissioning Board? I wonder whether the noble Earl can guide me to the statutory framework for Public Health England, as it does not seem to be in this long Bill, although it is possible that I am just incompetent and have not spotted it. It seems to me that the chief officer—I hope that he will be a highly qualified public health specialist—who is the senior officer in Public Health England, should have a seat on the national Commissioning Board. That should perhaps not necessarily be permanent, but he should be consulted frequently by the Commissioning Board.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and all noble Lords who have spoken in another excellent debate. I understand the arguments that have been put forward in favour of these amendments. It is important for me to say at the outset that the Government’s general approach is to allow the NHS Commissioning Board as much autonomy as possible in determining its own membership, structures and procedures. It is our firm view that the board is the body best placed to determine how to organise itself in the most effective and efficient way. We would not want to undermine that.

It is also worth restating that, looking across government, it is the responsibility of all departments to ensure that public appointments to arm's-length bodies are open, transparent and made on merit. However, it is not government policy for such appointments to be subject to Select Committee approval—in this case the Health Select Committee. These are ministerial appointments. The Secretary of State is ultimately accountable to Parliament for the performance of the health service as a whole, as we have made clear through amendments to the Bill. The current process under which some posts are subject to pre-appointment hearings by a House Select Committee does not represent a power of veto, which the amendment would amount to. Of course, noble Lords will be aware that we followed this process, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, reminded us, in the recent appointment of Professor Malcolm Grant as the chair of the NHS Commissioning Board Authority. When we discussed this last in Committee, I was pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said that he thought that this process ensured proper and effective scrutiny of that appointment. I gently wish to hold him to that view. He raised the comparison of the Office for Budget Responsibility, saying that the NHS Commissioning Board was just as important. Importance is not the issue. The Office for Budget Responsibility has a unique role because it has dual accountability to both government and Parliament directly. The NHS Commissioning Board is accountable to government and, through Ministers, to Parliament, which is somewhat different.

I turn to Amendments 21, 21A and 22. We recognise that the Bill strikes a fine balance between giving the board as much autonomy as possible in how it operates, and providing the necessary accountability. It is important to strike that balance accurately and consistently. If we were so prescriptive in the Bill as to set out further requirements for the board's membership, we would be moving too far away from that necessary autonomy. It is right that it should be up to the board to decide whether it has a vice-chair or a senior independent director, as Amendment 21 suggests. Of course, a vice-chair or deputy chair, were they to be appointed, would have to be non-executive.

Likewise, while I agree that it will be key to the effectiveness of the board for it to involve and obtain sufficient advice and input from public health experts, and to have public health well within its purview, it would not be right to specify that it must have a public health specialist as a member, as Amendment 21A proposes. Again, I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend Lady Williams in particular, but we think that the board will be best placed to determine whether it has the right structure and range of skills, knowledge and experience appropriate to the issues that it will face. In the material that David Nicholson published he made it clear that, rather than making token appointments, he intends that clinical leadership will run right through the organisation. That is a very reassuring statement.

Amendment 22 takes the Secretary of State out of the loop of appointing the chief executive. That moves us too far away from one of the key principles that most of us have signed up to: the necessary accountability of the board to the Secretary of State. It also seems at odds with the ethos of other amendments proposed by the noble Lord, such as Amendment 19, which we debated on the first day of Report and which sought to make every other aspect of the exercise of the board's functions subject to direction from the Secretary of State.

Health: Smear Tests

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Monday 13th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I can reassure my noble friend that the cervical cancer screening programme will be commissioned by the NHS Commissioning Board, so it will be done nationally and centrally.

[Lord Rea]

Is the HPV vaccination being offered also to teenage boys? After all, they are responsible for spreading this virus.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, inoculation is not being offered to boys as part of the national programme. As I am sure the noble Lord knows, the aim of the programme has always been to prevent cervical cancer in women. Clearly, the best way to do that is to vaccinate girls and young women. However, these vaccines can be purchased privately and health professionals should exercise their clinical judgment when prescribing products for specific indications.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

The noble Lord will know, because the NHS Commissioning Board authority has published its proposals, that the board will be represented sectorally. There will be field forces in all parts of the country. My vision of this, and that of Sir David Nicholson is that in the areas in which the board operates it will take a view across a region and look at how outcomes vary between local authority areas. The board will be very powerfully placed to influence the kinds of inequalities that the noble Lord has spoken of. It is important for noble Lords to understand that the board will not be a collection of people sitting in Leeds. The majority of its staff will be a field force. I hope that that is helpful.

[Lord Rea]

Does the noble Lord accept that to smooth out inequalities costs money? Therefore, the CCG in Tottenham should get more per capita than the CCG in Totteridge. At the moment allocation is made according to an index that takes deprivation into account to some extent, but not enough. How will that be administered under the new system?

[Earl Howe]

The advisory committee for resource allocation which exists at the moment will advise on the allocation of resources according to a very detailed formula. That applies to the NHS and public health. There will be a separate ring-fenced budget that specifically takes account of deprivation. That budget will be held by Public Health England and passed down to local authorities to use at a local level. We are very clear that deprivation and health inequalities must be reflected in terms of the budgets that CCGs and local authorities receive. I hope that I can reassure the noble Lord on that point.

Government Amendments 68, 112 and 144 set out a requirement for the Secretary of State, the board and CCGs to report annually on their work to reduce health inequalities. We had a great deal of helpful and interesting discussion on reducing health inequalities in Committee and as a result of those discussions, we felt that it was important to bring forward three amendments on the reporting requirements. Amendment 144 requires the Secretary of State to include in his annual report an assessment of how effectively he has carried out these duties, meaning that Parliament will hold him to account. I have tabled parallel government Amendments 68 and 112, which require the commissioning board and CCGs to report on how effectively they have fulfilled their inequality duties. We believe that this will ensure that our objectives to reduce health inequalities and improve quality of care are embedded throughout the system from top to bottom. I hope that noble Lords can support those amendments when I move them.

Tobacco

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Monday 6th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend is absolutely right that that is where the problem principally lies: 320,000 young people experiment with smoking or take it up every year. That is a very serious rate of incidence and it must be tackled at every possible level. The tobacco control plan sets out a concerted programme of action to try to do just that.

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, on 11 July this year the noble Earl said to the House,

“we will make sure that we publish details of policy-related meetings between the tobacco industry and government departments and we are currently exploring the most effective and appropriate mechanism for doing that”.—[Official Report, 11/7/11; col. 560.]

Could the noble Earl please say what that mechanism is, and whether it is now being implemented?

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

It is accountable for its decisions at a regional or sub-national level in a real sense. If it was not interacting with the boards, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, might have a point; but it will be. I think that that is accountability in a meaningful sense. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, talks about budgetary accountability, and I understand that that is a real issue. Of course there will be no budgetary accountability, but there will be accountability for the decisions and actions taken by the field forces.

I was saying that the structure means that all too often neither of the roles that PCTs perform is performed well. GPs, who actually make the clinical decisions, are not properly involved in PCT commissioning; and PCTs do not have the detailed understanding of their communities or the link to other local public services. The result is an unsatisfactory compromise, with commissioning that fails to deliver improvements in health outcomes and local services that are fragmented and not integrated.

It has been suggested by some noble Lords that one could have kept PCTs and parachuted in a whole lot of doctors, perhaps filtering out some of the administrators. Anyone who has visited any pathfinder CCG and put that question to the doctors and other clinicians involved will know the answers to why that would not have been a valid and sensible idea. The way in which services are commissioned has to depend on the judgment of clinicians and the wisdom of establishing geographic areas for commissioning groups that make sense in terms of patient flows and in terms of links with local authorities, social services and public health. It does not make sense to retain structures that, frankly, are administrative constructs that do not necessarily bear any relation to patient flows or relationships with local authorities. These clinical commissioning groups are being created from the bottom up by those who know what is in the best interests of patients, and it is to patients that we must always return in our thinking. We currently spend £3.6 billion a year on the commissioning costs of PCTs. PCT and SHA management costs have increased by £1 billion since 2002-03. That is a rise of over 120 per cent. We cannot make savings on the scale that we need to while retaining the administrative superstructure of the NHS.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested that the pathfinder CCGs were being built on nothing at all. They are not being created from nowhere. They are building on, and are indeed a logical development of, practice-based commissioning groups, of which there were a very significant number. There are currently 266 pathfinder clinical commissioning groups covering 95 per cent of GP practices in England. As I have indicated before, I cannot say how many we will eventually end up with, but that will give noble Lords a rough indication of the order of magnitude.

The noble Lord, Lord Rea, quoted some words of mine from a debate of several years ago. I would simply say to him that I was speaking then of something completely different from the Government’s current proposals, and I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, for pointing that out. These reforms place leadership of commissioning firmly with clinicians. I completely agree that giving leadership to a non-statutory, private-sector firm would be a bad idea. That is why there are very clear safeguards against this happening. With PCTs, I feel that there was a genuine question over where commissioning leadership really lay, and this is very firmly no longer the case.

On Amendment 236A, I must clarify one point. It is not the case that a clause stand part debate on Clause 30 would be consequential if a Division was to be called on Amendment 236A and won. It would simply amend this clause and not entail that it needs to be removed.

I hope that I have sufficiently covered the issues raised by noble Lords. I do not suppose that I have satisfied everyone, but I hope that I have at least indicated the direction of government policy in a coherent way.

[Lord Rea]

The staff of PCTs below management level are going to be rather disappointed that the Minister did not answer my question regarding their employment and the possibility of their being moved over to the CCGs, where many of their functions are going to be precisely similar. Are they going to be made redundant? Is it going to be possible to move staff over smoothly without a break in their employment status?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the rules apply on transfer of employment, and we anticipate that around 60 per cent of PCT staff will transfer to clinical commissioning groups, local authorities or the NHS Commissioning Board. It has been necessary to institute a programme of managed accelerated retirement for those for whom there will be no posts. However, this is being done in as friendly and generous a way as possible and the process is working well. But on the noble Lord’s main concern, yes, the terms and conditions of employment should not alter for those who stay.

NHS: Prebiotics

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, could not a strong case be made for the Department of Health to commission a suitably designed pilot study of prebiotics to see whether they are beneficial in the prevention of Clostridium difficile and other conditions?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, as I have said, we will continue to look at the matter with interest. Of course the department has a very sizeable clinical research budget, which is open to all bids of a high quality. There is no reason why a bid should not be made on this issue as well.

Health: Diet

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Baroness saw my right honourable friend on television recently talking about this issue, but this is a good opportunity for me to put the record straight. He has not criticised Jamie Oliver’s work on school meals: on the contrary, he has applauded Mr Oliver and the many people who have worked very hard to improve the standard of school meals. The point that he made was that a very important initiative started by Jamie Oliver to make people more aware of what healthy eating is all about turned into a kind of prescriptive, top-down management process from Whitehall—and that is counterproductive.

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, how will the Government ensure that the principles of openness, independence and scientific accuracy in their pronouncements and advice, developed by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, when he was the chair of the FSA, will be continued by whatever successor bodies are appointed to carry on the tasks of the FSA?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the noble Lord is assuming that the Food Standards Agency is going to disappear. I have seen those reports but do not recognise the stories at all. As I have told the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and others, no decisions have been taken about the future of various functions within the Food Standards Agency, but we are clear that there has to be a role for a body setting standards objectively in the way that he has described.

Health: Government Spending

Debate between Lord Rea and Earl Howe

Monday 14th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Countess, particularly given her wealth of knowledge and experience in this area, for putting forward that suggestion, which I shall certainly take back with me.

[Lord Rea]

My Lords, if the Food Standards Agency is to be wound down, which would be regrettable since it would mean the loss of an important, independent voice, will its science-based public health work on nutrition continue to be funded at least at the present level, if not augmented, which it needs to be?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Government fully recognise the important role that the Food Standards Agency plays in food standards, nutrition and food safety. Public health is a priority, and I reassure the noble Lord that the function that the FSA currently fulfils—to advise the Government and the public on nutrition—is one that we believe is equally important.