Employment Tribunals Act 1996 (Tribunal Composition) Order 2012

Lord Razzall Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

An aggressive reduction in employment rights—as many have said, I fear that there are more to come—simply encourages the attitude that labour is a resource that can be easily disposed of and does not merit training investment, and that skills shortages can be addressed simply by paying the prevailing labour market price or operating at a sub-optimal level. Tackling that issue is a bigger challenge to the economic performance of the UK than measures unsupported by evidence that deny 3 million people statutory protection, or hoping that undermining the industrial court will somehow deliver an economic transformation. Getting employers not to take a short-term attitude to labour that such changes will deliver, but to give a commitment to training, is the bigger economic challenge.

[Lord Razzall]

My Lords, we have had an extremely interesting discussion, which was virtually a repetition of our debate in Grand Committee. I remain with the fear I expressed during that debate that this issue has become far too polarised. On the one hand, the proponents of the statutory instrument suggest that it will lead to a significant increase in employment, particularly in the SME sector. On the other hand, after listening to a lot of the remarks on the Labour side, one would think that one was returning to the days of the Tolpuddle martyrs. I worry about this polarisation because this is a relatively modest instrument.

As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, indicated, I know that a lot of the evidence here is anecdotal. I now see that the noble Lord has extended his saloon-bar anecdotes beyond just Hertfordshire to the whole of the Home Counties. The evidence is not only anecdotal but based on the experience of many noble Lords who sit on boards of directors and are involved with SMEs. The evidence is therefore not entirely anecdotal, but I take the point.

This is a very modest alteration if you look at the number of people who, when the restriction was one year, actually made a claim for unfair dismissal when they were dismissed between year one and year two. There does not seem to be any significant indication that such people will lose their rights as a result of this legislation.

The point I really want to make, which I made in Grand Committee—and I am glad that one or two noble Lords on the Labour side have taken this up—is that we are in the middle of a significant internal argument around the suggestions in certain quarters that virtually all employment protection should be scrapped. This is a very serious matter. Conversely, a number of people, certainly on the coalition side, have been arguing that we need improvements in employment protection, particularly in what are described as family-friendly rights on maternity, paternity and other such issues. I hope that this will appeal to the Labour side of your Lordships’ House. If we are going to get the improvements we want in those family-friendly rights, and if we are to beat off the damaging proposals that seem to be coming from Mr Beecroft and ensure that they are not implemented, passing this modest instrument seems to be a small price to pay.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is not a time-limited debate, but I suggest that we hear from the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, and then the Minister.