Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Bishop of Guildford

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Guildford]

My Lords, in speaking briefly in support of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Condon, and doing so after returning from a discussion this morning between the bishops of the Church of England—particularly the relevant bishops of the urban areas—about the disturbances, I recognise that there has been ministerial assurance in some of the areas that have been spoken about in earlier parts of the debate. However, a number of us on this Bench still hear of a continued anxiety, within the police forces and outside, about the potential for politicisation of policing. I note, for example, that serious comment has been made in at least two serious papers in relation to the appointment of a Metropolitan Commissioner. I do not say that I believe that or accept it, but those are concerns that are around, and that is dispiriting for senior police officers and their professional future.

There are three particular areas that have been touched on earlier in the debates. These have not yet been fully assured on, which is why I am supporting this amendment: to give more time for that discussion to take place. These areas relate to commissioners and chief constables. The first is finance. If a commissioner has absolute control of the purse strings, then where will the essential operational discretion of the chief constable be? Secondly, a local politician may well be too focused on the local, and under some circumstances impede the wider strategic vision of a chief constable in relation to both national and interforce strategies. Finally, while it is right that a chief constable can be sacked, if the safeguards which are already being discussed on hiring and firing are not properly worked out, then again, the proper autonomy of a chief constable will be prejudiced. We may then be in the kind of situation that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to.

There is a need for more time to have these difficult areas sorted out, so that there will be more confidence from chief constables, and downwards, in our police forces as they go into a new era.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I, too, rise to support my noble friend Lord Condon. I find this a very sad day, because again we are taking part in legislation which I believe can now be seen to be—and will prove to have been—untimely and indeed irrelevant. I say that because, like my noble friend Lord Condon, I was very struck by the events of August and what they portend. Several times during the Bill’s passage so far, mention has been made that its title is inappropriate, because it talks about police reform. There is precious little in the Bill about reform of the police, but a great deal about reform of the governance of the police, which is not the same thing at all.

A country can be at peace with itself only if it has such elements in it as law and order, based on consent. What August sadly showed us is that much of this country is not at peace with itself. What is needed, among other things, is improvement of policing in relationship to people and particularly to young people, a lesson which came out very clearly from 1981 as well. If we did not have this Bill in front of us at the moment, I venture to suggest that—following the Winsor reports, which have already been mentioned, and the reports of the task force that the Government have appointed to report on the events of August—the Government would be seriously considering what legislation ought to be brought in to bring about the reforms of policing that are necessary as a result of what has been disclosed. It might well be that, as part of that process, and as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested, there should be a royal commission on policing or something like it, because the last one was 49 years ago. Things have moved on since then. The situation that we now face is very different from the situation as seen in 1962. Whatever comes out of this, I hope that it does not include policing by fear and firearms American style. Therefore, I have to say with regret that I disagree with the Minister that the reforms before us now cannot wait. The one thing about them is that they can, and should, wait, because they are very likely to prove an impediment to what the Government will have to introduce when they examine the recommendations made to them as a result of the examinations of August. In normal terms, one will match governance to policing and not the other way round. What comes out will have to have governance attached.

Therefore, I believe that what the noble Lord, Lord Condon, has done by suggesting extra time, and it is very little time, is to give the Government the opportunity to examine these things and, one hopes, to do something sensible such as withdraw the Bill and not saddle themselves with its encumbrances. That would enable them to take advantage of what comes out of the studies and reports that they have initiated, which will provide this country with the policing that it needs so that, once again, it can be at peace with itself.