Welfare Reform Bill

Lord Ramsbotham Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Ramsbotham]

107: After Clause 113, insert the following new Clause—
“Means inquiry before sanctions, penalties and recovery of overpayments are imposed
(1) In respect of the imposition of an overpayment or sanction under the Jobseekers Act 1995 or any other provision or in the case of a penalty imposed under section 115C of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, the Secretary of State shall consider—
(a) evidence of the physical condition of the claimant and his or her state of health;(b) evidence of the psychological state of health of the claimant;(c) evidence relating to the means and income of the claimant;(d) evidence relating to the accommodation occupied by the claimant and the effect that the imposition of a sanction or penalty may have on the right to occupy such accommodation;(e) the family circumstances of the claimant and the impact that it may have on other family members and dependants;(f) evidence of the impact that a sanction or penalty may have on the ability of the claimant to fulfil obligations to third parties including those relating to the fulfilment of benefit entitlement conditions,before deciding whether to impose a sanction or penalty and shall only do so where, having considered all the relevant circumstances, it is reasonable to do so.(2) Regarding evidence as to means the Secretary of State must consider—
(a) the income of the claimant;(b) the capital of the claimant;(c) the expenditure of the claimant.(3) In order to facilitate the enquiry into the matters set out in subsection (1), the Secretary of State or authority may—
(a) arrange for a medical examination of the claimant;(b) obtain information from any agency holding relevant information on the income and resources of the claimant;(c) receive evidence from any other person or persons with a knowledge of the circumstances of the claimant.(4) A person who is subject to a penalty may appeal to a tribunal (lower tier) against the imposition of such a penalty.”

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, in many respects this amendment, which stems from the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust and 16 other organisations and groups, including Mind, Save the Children and the Church of England bishops, is complementary to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and the subsequent debate that we have just had. Its purpose is to propose that the duty on officials responsible for making decisions on sanctions or penalties against benefit claimants, or the enforcement of overpayment recovery, takes into account the facts and circumstances of the claimants in each case, and that that duty should be in the Bill. My list of what that evidence-gathering might include may seem long, but the facts and circumstances are as many and varied as the lives of the claimants themselves.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Ramsbotham]

My Lords, I was not quite certain what we were going to end up with after all that. I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for pre-empting me in suggesting that others should come to that meeting, not just those who put their names to the amendment but also those who have spoken, because I suspect that there is quite a lot to be done. I think that it might be sensible also to include some of the groups that approached me in the formulation of the amendment to hear from them on the ground as they have a great deal to contribute. I found it encouraging that the Minister agreed that this was an issue that really has to be tackled so we all start from a common ground.

As always, I am grateful for the wisdom of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I absolutely accept what he says and indeed, I have looked at this process in Grand Committee as being a way of refining what we were saying. It was getting something done that needs refining, which I saw as the purpose of the Grand Committee. I entirely take the Minister’s idea that we take this on with a seminar. It is too important an issue not to be explored in detail. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, has introduced the issue of localism, and so on, so there are other issues, as well as the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill on the impact on legal aid and access to justice, which should all be taken into account. On that basis, and in thanking everyone who has taken part, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 107 withdrawn.