Official Development Assistance

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 15th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I start by echoing the thoughts of many noble Lords by offering my own condolences to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, on her family loss. At the same, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, for stepping in so ably and for tabling the debate. I also thank all noble Lords for their considered contributions. I acknowledge that many Peers are critical of the Government’s current position on ODA, and fear that I may not be able to give too much comfort to the House with my remarks; but, as ever, I will try to do my best.

The debate is particularly timely given the international context. I start by saying something which has not been said this afternoon: my first thoughts are with those who have tragically lost their lives—once again, I am afraid to say—crossing the English Channel this week. I cannot deny that the pandemic and Russia’s barbaric attack on Ukraine have both compromised progress on development; my noble friend Lord Herbert acknowledged that in his remarks. However, the geopolitical context has magnified the importance of our development work, while placing extra demands on our budgets, including the unforeseen costs of supporting Ukrainian and Afghan refugees, for which the Government are providing additional resource. I will say more about that in a moment. As my right honourable friend Andrew Mitchell said in the other place, it is the right thing to do and a legitimate and fair use of ODA; that has also been acknowledged by the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Hannay. I welcome the return of my right honourable friend Andrew Mitchell to the Government. I know that his return is widely applauded today because, as the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, said, he understands his subject area—and while that assessment is correct, it is probably a bit of an understatement.

I will answer a question raised by my noble friend Lady Sugg on the amount of domestic costs for refugee hosting that has been charged to ODA. That question was also raised by my noble friend Lady Hodgson and the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough. The UK is providing significant support to people from Afghanistan and Ukraine who are fleeing conflict and seeking sanctuary in the UK, which is the right thing to do. Under OECD DAC rules, some elements of support given to asylum seekers and refugees for the first 12 months of their stay in the UK is counted as ODA, if they originate from ODA-eligible countries. As such, a significant proportion of the ODA budget is being spent domestically. That is legitimate under the rules and is a right and fair use of ODA. However, to answer my noble friend Lady Sugg’s specific question on total costs, it is a dynamic situation, and the exact costs of hosting refugees domestically will be available only when we finalise our statistics for international development for 2022, which I can reassure the House will be made public.

To take a step back for a moment, the UK has a proud history of international development, from the Ministry of Overseas Development in the 1960s and its various guises, including as the Department for International Development, to the formation of the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office in 2020. The UK has long been a leader in international development. We were the first G7 country to meet the UN’s long-standing target to spend 0.7% of GNI on ODA in 2013, and we were at the forefront of negotiating the sustainable development goals. I will say more about this later.

As we know—I have listened to much of the criticism this afternoon—the UK’s ODA budget now sits at around 0.5% of GNI. Points were raised very passionately, not least by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans and the noble Lord, Lord McConnell. I would like to add a little balance, which chimes with the remarks of my noble friends Lord Herbert and Lord Hannan. In providing this balance, I will answer a question asked by my noble friend Lady Hodgson. In 2021, the amount we spent was over £11 billion, making us still one of the most generous aid donors in the G7. That is equivalent to half the cost of what it took to build the Elizabeth line. No one can deny that this funding is generous.

Added to this is the British public’s enormous support for the people fleeing conflict and seeking sanctuary here from Afghanistan and Ukraine. To meet the significant and unanticipated costs of this support, the Treasury will provide additional resources of £1 billion this financial year and £1.5 billion next financial year. We continue to pledge our steadfast support for Ukraine. It is right that the UK rises to meet these challenges by allocating additional resources. The FCDO is the largest aid spender across government, spending 72% of all UK government ODA in 2021. Given these pressures, the FCDO will have to manage a lower ODA budget than it was allocated in the spending review 2021 settlement.

With this, we are reminded that there are very difficult choices for the Government to make about how to manage this reduction—which, again, a few Peers have said this afternoon. However, I hope to reassure the House that we do have a plan. I will start by giving three overarching objectives. First, we will focus our spending on the priorities set out in the international development strategy, while maximising value for money and our flexibility to respond to emerging issues.

Secondly, because multilateral organisations, such as the UN and the Global Fund for AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria, remain essential partners for achieving our goals, we will meet the financial commitments we have made to them. The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, raised tuberculosis, which I hope to say more about in a moment, and my noble friend Lady Sugg raised malaria. I will try to help by answering the questions raised, particularly on malaria, although I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, and others raised Nigeria, and my noble friend Lord Fowler, if I may call him that, gave a passionate speech on AIDS.

My right honourable friend in the other place, Andrew Mitchell, was pleased to speak at the launch of the World Malaria Report on Monday, an event organised by Malaria No More, which my noble friend Lady Sugg mentioned that she chairs. Minister Mitchell spoke of the department’s commitment to the fight against malaria and to getting back on track to meet the target to end the epidemic of malaria by 2030. As the Minister said, it is appalling that malaria, a disease that is eminently preventable and treatable, kills a child every minute of every day. He was pleased to announce a £1 billion commitment to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria.

Through this funding, the UK will support the delivery of malaria treatments and care to over 18 million people, and the distribution of 86 million mosquito nets to protect children and families from malaria. The UK is also supporting research and development in the fight against malaria, investing in other global health institutions, and supporting other countries. That might help to answer the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, on research and development, although I acknowledge it might not go the whole way.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, spoke about TB in particular. I will answer, although perhaps not in full, some of the questions that she asked. As part of our £1 billion contribution to the global fund, which I just mentioned, TB treatment and care will benefit 1.1 million people; screen 20 million people for the disease; and provide 41,800 people—it is very precise—with treatment for multidrug-resistant TB. We are also supporting the Stop TB Partnership’s TB REACH programme with £6 million to fund new approaches aiming to increase the number of people diagnosed with and treated for TB. I could say a bit more but, in the interests of time, I will move on, if I may.

The noble Baroness also asked about support for the WHO in developing an Ebola vaccine and for the outbreak in Uganda. We have been working with the WHO, CEPI, Oxford University and others to support the Government of Uganda on vaccine trials. Trial vaccines have arrived in the country within 80 days of the outbreak being declared—a significant achievement by all partners that demonstrates the progress made on the 100-day mission, which the noble Baroness will know about.

Let me move back to our overarching objectives; I want to talk, thirdly, about what we are doing. The FCDO will act swiftly to manage its bilateral programmes this financial year. We will approach this in a proportionate way, empowering experts in our missions and relevant policy teams to ensure that we prioritise the right areas.

Let me now go into the priorities of the UK Government’s strategy for international development, having focused on the overarching objectives. As the House may know, this strategy outlines four priorities and a patient approach to development. Our patient approach involves working more closely with partner countries to help them build the capabilities and effective institutions for lasting progress, and to help them tackle the structural barriers that they face. We will bring the combined power of the UK’s global economic, scientific, security and diplomatic strengths to bolster our development partnerships, and we will harness the best of British expertise to channel world-class UK business, civil society networks, research partnerships and technology capability to countries across the world.

The four priorities are as follows. The first is to deliver clean and reliable investment through British investment partnerships. These partnerships will help low and middle-income countries get the investment that they need to grow resilient, open, thriving economies and reduce their strategic dependence on others.

The second priority, which has been very much a theme of this debate, is providing women and girls with the freedom that they need to succeed. Some interesting and helpful speeches were made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington—particularly on rugby programmes—and my noble friends Lady Sugg, Lady Jenkin and Lady Hodgson. I want to try to answer one or two questions that were asked about this important subject but, before I do, let me say that we will educate girls by standing up for the right of every girl to have 12 years of quality education. We will empower women and girls by unlocking their social, economic and political potential, and we will drive international action to end all forms of gender-based violence.

My noble friend Lady Sugg asked some detailed questions about the forthcoming women and girls strategy. In addition to what I have already said, let me say that tackling gender inequality and standing up for the rights of women and girls around the world are a core part of the UK Government’s mission. The FCDO recognises that grass-roots women’s rights organisations are critical to achieving lasting transformation across all our gender equality objectives and we are committed to stepping up our work in this area. The FCDO is exploring options for new support. I am aware of the appalling crimes—I put it that way: “crimes”—that are being committed in both Iran and Afghanistan; some particular examples from Afghanistan were given.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked me some specific questions on whether we are restoring the bilateral budget for women and girls. He made some passionate remarks about this. In line with what I have just said, we will report on this in due course. Unfortunately, I do not have anything further to say on that this afternoon.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

The noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, promised me in February that the funding will be restored. Could the Minister be quite clear and just say to me now if that promise is still a promise?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am not able to actually say that, but what I can say is that we will report on this in due course. I am not going to stand here at the Dispatch Box and say something that I cannot promise, but of course I am with the noble Lord in hoping that it might be the case.

The third priority, therefore, moving on, is to step-up our life-saving humanitarian work. The UK is a global leader in driving more effective approaches to humanitarian crises. For example, our proactive thought-leadership and innovative approaches on cash transfers have helped double the volume of cash programming in humanitarian settings since 2016, reaching $5.6 billion by the end of 2019. With our allies and partners, we will prioritise humanitarian assistance for people in greatest need: this was a point raised by my noble friend Lord Hannan, which I think he cited as being an easy decision for ODA spending. He is of course right: that is very important. It includes protecting people most at risk, and anticipating and preventing future shocks. 

Our fourth development priority is to take forward our work on climate change, nature and global health. This was certainly raised by the noble Lords, Lord McConnell and Lord Hannay. I will just give a brief answer. The UK is delivering: we are committed and are delivering on our commitment on £11.6 billion, which was made at the international climate finance forum, to support the most vulnerable who are experiencing the worst impacts of climate change. We will triple our funding for adaptation from £500 million in 2019 to £1.5 billion in 2025. We have also committed to investing at least £3 billion of this ICF into the development of solutions that protect and restore nature. I hope that helps.

Let me set out how we will use ODA, a subject which was certainly raised by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell. In a world where global co-operation, including on trade, technology and regulations, is under threat, more than ever we need to remember to prioritise ODA. This means protecting ODA for those in the poorest countries, and those in most need of support, while multiplying our impact by drawing on private investment. Our international development offer goes beyond how we spend ODA as a catalyst for development. It is also about closer trading partnerships, improved global governance, fairer international rules, and access to expertise and technology. We are using our overseas network to work for more equitable international rules and standards. This approach is not only effective but delivers benefits to the UK: strengthening our global influence, bringing greater resilience to our supply chains, and helping to protect against future global shocks.

I will now move to the big question raised by so many Peers this afternoon: the return to 0.7%. While it is clear that we can remain a global leader in development, I reconfirm our commitment to returning to spending 0.7% of gross national income on ODA once the fiscal situation allows. Our principles provide a clear measure for our return to 0.7% and underline the Government’s commitment to this target. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, put it well—I listened carefully to what he said—when he talked about rebuilding discrete development capacity and expertise. He cited an important word: predictability. The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, I think, added to that by using the word consistency. Of course, he is right: we want to get back to that point where we are regarded in these respects.

The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, asked a question which I did not initially have the answer to, but I think I may have now, which was on how often conditions for returning to 0.7% were met. According to the OBR, the UK would have met the fiscal test for a return to 0.7% for all three years prior to the pandemic: 2016-17 through to 2018-19 onwards. I hope that helps.

Just to add to that, though, the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, raised this point. In saying that the Government remain committed to debt falling, balancing the current budget and returning to 0.7% when the fiscal circumstances allow, fiscal tests to determine a return to 0.7% were confirmed by Parliament in summer 2021. The Treasury will provide updates, as I think the House will know, on the implications of future forecasts on the return to 0.7%. We will return to spending 0.7% of GNI on ODA when, on a sustainable basis, the Government are no longer borrowing for day-to-day spending and underlying debt is falling. Before somebody asks how we define “sustainable basis”, I should say that, when reviewing fiscal forecasts, the Government will have to consider whether improvements in the fiscal situation are sustainable. It would not make sense to increase ODA spending when the tests are only forecast to be met for reasons which are unlikely to continue in future years. Given uncertainties in the fiscal outlook, ensuring tests are met on a sustainable basis will ensure that the Government have space to account for fiscal and forecast risks in their assessment of the fiscal situation.

There are a number of other questions which I may try to answer. Let me start with a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, on the voluntary national review. The UK’s first VNR, in 2019, provided a comprehensive account of actions being taken across the UK by government, and other actions. No decision has been made about a follow-up to the 2019 VNR—that may not help him—but the Government remain fully supportive of the sustainable development goal. He asked also about an explicit target for looking at conflict and its prevention. This year, bilateral allocations will be decided by experts on the ground who have been empowered to determine, with our partners, which programmes to continue in line with the IDS, prioritising humanitarian and women and girls work where possible.

I am aware that time is moving on. There are questions that I am yet to answer, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on ODA and HIV, and I am certainly going to write to him with the answer, which I do actually have here. I have an answer for the question about dengue fever raised by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans; I think it is better to put that in writing. I will also answer the question about charities raised by the noble Lord, Lord Addington; again, I think it is best to put that in a letter.

The UK remains one of the largest donors of official development assistance in the world. We magnify the impact of our budget in a number of ways: we attract funding from other donors and investors, we spend smartly on innovative expert-led projects with a wide reach, and we focus where we can have the most impact and positive effect on peoples’ lives. I cite our actions in Syria, where we provided some 182,000 people with drinking water and 153,000 pupils with access to formal education last year.

With the international development strategy—so important as a guiding hand—our spending decisions, our partnerships, and our expertise and professionalism will continue to reinforce our position as a development leader.

Trading Relations: USA, EU and China

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I always listen carefully to the noble Lord. He makes some good points. I start by saying that 61,000 jobs in this country are reliant on Chinese companies. However, human rights are a major issue; I hope that chimes with the remarks made on many occasions in this Chamber in providing evidence of the extent of China’s efforts to silence and repress the Uighurs and other minorities. It is important that we create a balance between continuing trade with China and the fact that we are not looking at forming an FTA with China at present.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, we were promised that there would be no friction in our trade with Europe. There is enormous friction. We were also promised by now a full FTA with America that would mop up any slack in our trading relations with Europe. That has not happened. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, we now have the largest trade deficit in our nation’s history with one country—China—making up £40.5 billion. Is it not now in our strategic interest to reduce the barriers between us and our nearest neighbours—democratic countries—and to make sure that our economy is no longer wholly dependent on imports of goods from China? Why are the Conservative Government making the UK dependent on goods from China?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I do not believe that we are doing that. On the noble Lord’s points, I say that our free trade agreement negotiations with the US—it is, as we know, a very important market—are paused at the moment for reasons he will know. On the EU, we know that progress is being made. Obviously, some extremely difficult and sensitive negotiations are ongoing, but we are firmly of the belief that we will be able to resolve these.

Australia Free Trade Agreement

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Viscount makes a good point, and I shall certainly take that back. I shall make one or two points about the new Australian Government in my remarks.

I should also like to address the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, about extending CRaG in this respect—again, I would like to row back on what he was saying. He asked whether we would extend; this of course is a decision not for me but for the Secretary of State for International Trade. However, we are confident that the arrangements that we have put in place for scrutiny are robust. The agreement has been under scrutiny for over six months now and benefited from three very valuable reports from parliamentary Select Committees, including the International Agreements Committee in this House.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

The Minister will know that the Liaison Committee in the House of Commons has written formally to request an extension of the scrutiny period. Have the Government responded to that, and what is their position with regard to the concern in the Commons that the Secretary of State has not met the committee to respond to the very questions that we have raised in this debate today?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am not able to say whether we have responded, but I shall certainly get back to the noble Lord to find out exactly where we are on that process.

The IAC’s report acknowledged that the Government have upheld their commitments with regards to scrutiny of this agreement. However, I acknowledge the points that the committee made on scrutiny—first, that there is dialogue with committees prior to mandates being set for future agreements and, secondly, that we notify the IAC of all significant amendments to FTAs made after ratification. We are carefully considering the IAC’s report and will, of course, respond in due course. That, I hope, leads me to answer a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Oates, on lessons learned. He made a very valuable point there.

I move on to the agreement itself. In response to the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Udny-Lister, he is right that this is not only the first FTA negotiated from scratch by the UK Government since leaving the European Union but the first trade deal to be signed by the UK as an independent free-trading nation in nearly half a century. Since the Secretary of State for the Department for International Trade put her signature to the deal in December, she has gone on to sign an FTA with New Zealand and a digital economy agreement with Singapore. This means that we have now secured trade deals with 71 countries, on top of the trade deal with the EU. Together, these countries accounted for £808 billion of UK bilateral trade in 2021. This is an immense success story.

This FTA was negotiated quickly and efficiently, despite the turmoil brought about by Covid. It shows the world what global Britain can do as a truly independent nation. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Oates, that we would not have been able to negotiate this agreement as a member of the European Union. Having left the EU, we are pursuing arguably the most ambitious programme of free trade agreements that this country has ever seen. As we speak, the Department for International Trade is conducting FTA negotiations with India and Canada. Negotiations have also been launched with Mexico and with the Gulf Cooperation Council, a customs bloc of six countries made up of Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Negotiations will soon be under way with Israel too and the department has a packed programme of FTA negotiations coming down the track.

What we have achieved through this agreement, the UK-Australia FTA, is just the beginning. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, described the deal more eloquently than I am able to just now, but this is a world-class deal between two like-minded nations, friends and allies, that will bind us together for years to come. Australia is already an important trading partner for the UK—last year, our trading relationship was worth £14.4 billion—but the ties between our two countries go far deeper than that. It is a relationship forged through a shared history and a common language, a relationship that has an unyielding belief in democracy, liberty and the rule of law.

I shall attempt to answer a point raised by my noble friend Lady McIntosh and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. I will not be able to answer it in full and I may need to write a letter, but whether we have a trade strategy is a very fair question. We do indeed have a trade strategy and we have communicated it publicly through several publications, such as the integrated review, the plan for growth and strategic cases for each trade partner we are about to enter negotiations with. I probably need to write a letter, but the headlines concern what type of trading nation we want to be, what our aims for UK trade policy are, how we will try to achieve these aims, the connections to the export strategy and the strategic case for FTAs. We believe it is all there but I think I need to put that in writing for the House.

I shall move on to the benefits—which were questioned, by the way, by my noble friend Lady McIntosh. We believe that the FTA we have agreed will ensure that future generations continue to benefit from this relationship in more ways than one. We will be able to work together like never before to tackle existential challenges, such as climate change, health pandemics and threats to global security. This deal will deliver benefits to people, businesses and communities in every corner of the UK, playing a key part in levelling up our country.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I do indeed and if my noble friend will allow me, I shall come to that. To continue my so-called peroration, the deal will increase trade with Australia by 53% and boost the economy by £2.3 billion. I take note of the rather negative view of the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, and I will explain what the extra benefits of this deal are. It will enable the 15,900 businesses that already export goods to Australia to sell their products in ever greater quantities, while opening the door for thousands of other businesses to start their exporting journey. This means exciting new opportunities for Scotland’s world-renowned whisky distillers, Wales’s fintech companies and Northern Ireland’s leading medical and pharmaceutical firms, as well as the north-east’s car manufacturers and aerospace companies in the West Midlands.

My noble friend Lord Udny-Lister asked about the reach of this agreement—another good question. I shall just mention SMEs, because this deal will benefit businesses of all shapes and sizes, not least the UK’s SMEs—the backbone of Britain—which comprise more than 99% of all private sector businesses, employing 16.3 million people and generating £2.3 trillion of income.

I come to investment. The deal will unlock further investment potential between our two countries too, with UK investors able to benefit from broader and deeper market access than Australia has ever guaranteed in a previous trade agreement. This will allow us to build on the £37 billion already invested in Australia’s economy in 2020. Of course, there will also be benefits for UK consumers, who will be able to enjoy more of their favourite Australian products, such as Jacob’s Creek and Hardy’s wines or Tim Tam biscuits.

The subject of services was raised, not least by the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. I was pleased to read the comments of the IAC in its report, welcoming the provisions that have been secured. The services sector, as we know, is of huge importance to the UK, and we believe we have negotiated a deal that plays to these strengths. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that Australia has gone further than ever before in granting access to its market in several areas, with unprecedented levels of regulatory transparency. UK services from architecture and law to financial services and shipping will be able to compete in Australia on a guaranteed equal footing. This could increase exports of UK services to Australia, which were worth £5.3 billion in 2021.

The “Professional Services and Recognition of Professional Qualifications” chapter will support work towards mutual recognition of professional qualifications. This could lead to professionals such as lawyers, engineers and accountants no longer having to requalify to practice in one another’s countries. On mobility, the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, is right; this is a good part of the agreement, whereby there is a way in which our people can have good movement between one another’s countries. For the first time, UK service suppliers, including architects, scientists, researchers, lawyers and accountants, will have access to visas to work in Australia without being subject to its changing skilled occupation list.

I also acknowledge the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, about innovation. This agreement contains the world’s first dedicated innovation chapter, underlining the important role that innovation will play in the future. We want to take full advantage of this, particularly in terms of technological developments.

On agriculture, which I definitely want to come on to, the committee noted the concerns of the farming community, specifically that the agreement may lead to potential surges in agricultural imports to the UK. I want to provide some reassurance. We have secured a range of measures to safeguard our farmers, including tariff rate quotas for a number of sensitive agricultural products; product-specific safeguards for beef and sheepmeat, which were raised today in the debate; and a general bilateral safeguard mechanism providing a temporary safety net for all products. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said, we should remember that Australia’s focus is on exporting to lucrative markets in the Asia-Pacific region, and it is relatively unlikely that beef and sheep would be diverted to the UK from Asian markets in very large volumes, although I note the slightly pessimistic view of the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell.

Finally, answering the points made by my noble friend Lord Robathan, our estimates suggest a reduction in gross output of around 3% for beef and 5% for sheepmeat as a result of liberalisation, relative to the baseline. These estimated impacts would be felt gradually over the staging period. It is likely that the increase in imports will primarily displace beef imports from the EU and sheepmeat imports from New Zealand. Further testing suggests that, given the strong consumer preference for UK meat, gross output could fall by as little as 1% in beef and 2% in sheep.

The environment was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Oates and Lord Kerr, and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell. I note the disappointment expressed but, to come back to noble Lords on this, we have secured the most substantive climate provisions that Australia has ever committed to in an FTA. The deal also recognises our right to regulate to reach net zero and affirms our mutual international environment and climate commitments, including the Paris agreement. There is a lot more I could say about that, but I want to move on and finish—

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Before the Minister sits down, he has not responded to my question about geographical indicators. There is no protection for Scotch beef or lamb, Welsh lamb, Stilton cheese, Cornish pasties, clotted cream—there is a very long list. There is a side letter to the agreement from Dan Tehan, the Minister, which states categorically that there is no legal protection for any of these protected products. Why?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Okay, so that is a series of questions. I am going to agree to write to the noble Lord on that point because time is running out and I want to cover a number of other issues.

When it comes to animal welfare standards, I particularly want to address remarks made by the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, because I want to quote from the agreement:

“Each Party shall endeavour to ensure that its laws, regulations and policies provide for and encourage high levels of animal welfare protection and shall endeavour to continue to improve their respective levels of animal welfare protection, including through their laws”.


Therefore, I hope that we have given reassurances on animal protection, in not just this debate but others.

On ISDS, in response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, I note the committee’s recommendation that we clarify our position on ISDS and I am happy to confirm that in light of our investment relationship, the UK and Australia decided it was not necessary to include ISDS in this new agreement. What we did do is negotiate a dedicated state-to-state dispute settlement chapter; this is the central pillar of our agreement that will provide an effective method for enforcing commitments made in the deal.

Very quickly on CPTPP, there is a lot I could say about that, but I do believe that this is a historic deal, a very important deal, and will lead into this, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, has also said. I think I should conclude on that; I feel that there is a letter that the House is due from quite a few questions that have not been answered. I think I should finish, if I may do this, so—

Overseas Development Aid: Budget

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank, first of all, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, for introducing this important debate. We have heard many passionate and eloquently made arguments today on this subject, and I will do my best to address the many questions raised. However, we are united, I believe, on one fundamental point: the belief that the UK should dedicate 0.7% of our GNI to official development assistance. As the Prime Minister himself said in July:

“This is not an argument about principle. The only question is when we return to 0.7%.”—[Official Report, Commons, 13/7/21; col 173.]


I start by welcoming back the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough. As the House will know, he replaces the redoubtable noble Countess, Lady Mar, who has retired. How extraordinary it is that it has been 22 years since the noble Lord addressed this House last; even more so perhaps that, as he mentioned to me before this debate, he spent a mere 10 days here in this House before the exit of so many hereditary Peers in 1999—well before my time. I applaud his remarks in his—how shall I put it?—non-maiden speech, and we look forward to hearing from him a lot in the future, I am sure. I will address the question he has raised later in the debate.

Temporarily reducing the aid budget was not an easy path to take. But, as a Government, we do not have the luxury of avoiding difficult choices. In fact, the reverse is true; we face them head-on. Given the hugely difficult economic and fiscal situation, this was a decision that we were quite right to take. Coronavirus is an unprecedented crisis, and in turn it has required an unprecedented response. That is why decisions taken by this Government have provided around £400 billion of direct support to the economy this year and last year—considered one of the largest and most comprehensive packages globally. I am sure the House will acknowledge that.

Our strong recovery, combined with necessary tax rises, has strengthened our public finances. However, let me remind your Lordships that our national debt this year is set to pass £2.3 trillion or, to put it another way, 98.2% of gross domestic product—the highest level as a percentage of GDP since the early 1960s. Indeed, a sustained increase in interest rates and inflation of one percentage point would cost £22.8 billion by 2026-27.

High debt leaves us vulnerable to shocks and we need to rebuild a cushion, if you will, to safeguard the economy against future challenges. In just over a decade, the UK has faced two major economic shocks: the 2008 financial crisis and the 2020-21 pandemic. Developing fiscal buffers ensures that Governments will be able effectively to support the economy in future crises, and provides space to allow the Government to address long-term challenges.

It is fiscally responsible for us to bring debt under control and rebuild so-called fiscal space. We have already made the tough decisions needed to get debt under control through a small number of focused and progressive tax rises. As I mentioned earlier, this has meant some difficult but necessary decisions, including temporarily reducing ODA spending from 0.7% to 0.5% of GNI.

Let me address a question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, about our legal commitments—an area also touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. I reiterate that we are acting in line with the International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Act 2015, which explicitly envisages that there may be circumstances where the 0.7% target is not met. The decisions we are taking and our approach to the spending review and annual reviews, based on clear fiscal tests, are all in line with that Act.

Section 2 of the 2015 Act envisages circumstances in which the 0.7% target is not met due to

“economic circumstances and, in particular, any substantial change in gross national income”

and

“fiscal circumstances and, in particular, the likely impact of meeting the target on taxation, public spending and public borrowing”.

The Act provides for accountability to Parliament in the form of a Statement in the event that the Government do not meet the 0.7% target.

I turn to the specific circumstances for the return to 0.7%; I would like to be more positive. We have always been clear in our commitment to international development, and that the UK would return, as I said earlier, to spending 0.7% of GNI when the fiscal circumstances allowed. As your Lordships will recall, earlier this year we said that this would happen when the independent Office for Budget Responsibility confirmed that, on a sustainable basis, we are not borrowing for day-to-day spending and underlying debt is falling. I remind noble Lords that the House of Commons voted in support of these fiscal tests for returning to 0.7%.

I hope to provide some reassurance to the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, on the return to 0.7%. Given the Government’s careful stewardship of the public finances and the strength of the recovery, as the Chancellor outlined today, the ODA fiscal tests are now forecast to be met in 2024-25, which is earlier than the OBR forecast in March. As such, the 2021 spending review provisionally sets aside additional unallocated ODA funding for 2024-25, on top of departmental ODA settlements, to the value of the difference between 0.5% and 0.7% of GNI. This delivers on the Government’s commitment, made to Parliament, to return to spending 0.7% of GNI on ODA when it can be on a sustainable basis.

Of course, the Government will continue to monitor future forecasts closely and, each year over this period, will review and confirm, in accordance with the 2015 Act, whether a return to spending 0.7% of GNI is possible against the latest fiscal forecast. Should future forecasts deteriorate, however, decisions on the provisional ODA funding for 2024-25 will be made through the annual review of the ODA budget.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. No matter how many times Ministers assert, from the Dispatch Box, that they are acting in accordance with the legislation that I took through this House, it does not mean it is the case. Can the Minister refer to the other element of the Act which says that if, in the preceding year, the target had not been met, the statement has to indicate what measures will be taken to meet the target in the following year? That is still the law. That the Chancellor is now putting unallocated funds four years down the line is an absolute breach of the legislation.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord interprets it as he does, but I have been clear that we are acting within the law. I will write to the noble Lord with chapter and verse on why we are stating the position that we are.

As time is short, I will move on to the implications of the temporary reduction, because this was raised in particular by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie. I stress that we remain an open nation that is globally engaged. As the Chancellor outlined earlier today, departments have been provided with an ODA budget that rises to £12.3 billion in 2024-25, which is a 23% increase compared to the £10 billion allocated at the spending review last year.

I will address the point raised by the noble Lords, Lord Londesborough and Lord Collins, and my noble friend Lord Balfe about impact assessments. Officials considered any impacts on women and girls, the most marginalised and vulnerable, people with disabilities and people from other protected groups when developing advice to Ministers. We carried out an equalities impact assessment, which looked at our bilateral country spending. This central assessment showed no evidence that programmes targeting those with protected characteristics are more likely to be reduced or discontinued. I reassure the House that, as we move through this spending cycle, we will review the impact of projects and our spend to inform future spending decisions and policymakers.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, asked about the world’s poorest, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol indicated that we might be turning our backs on the poorest. We have a difficult balance to make, but I do not believe that that is what we are doing, because, by spending 0.5% of GNI, we will be spending over £10 billion this year, making us one of the largest ODA donors in the world and the second highest in the G7. We are committed to leading the global fight against poverty.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and the right reverend Prelate also talked about vaccines, on which I have some brief comments. The spending review provides continued support for Covid and global health, in line with the UK’s ground-breaking role, providing equitable access to Covid-19 vaccines, therapeutics and diagnostics. It funds the donation of the remaining 70 million doses of Covid-19 vaccines to meet the Prime Minister’s commitment to donate 100 million doses by June 2022. These vaccines are being rolled out to countries beyond our borders on a non-profit basis.

I will answer the brief point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, about Sudan. The departmental ODA budget is already increasing significantly, from the £10 billion that was allocated to over £12 billion in 2024-25, but I acknowledge the point that she made about Sudan.

To answer the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, we are increasing funding for women and girls to help achieve the global target to get 40 million girls into school and have 20 million more girls reading by the age of 10. I will write to the noble Baroness, as there is more that I can say about this.

Time is running out and I know that I have a long letter to write, because I have not managed to address a number of questions. In winding up, I thank noble Lords for their important contributions to what is, I acknowledge, and as the noble Baroness said at the beginning of the debate, an important subject. I reiterate that the Government remain committed to international development and the return to spending 0.7% of GNI on ODA, but when the fiscal situation allows us to.

Free Trade Agreement: New Zealand

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Monday 25th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I also welcome the Statement. The Minister’s noble friend Lord Grimstone is assiduous in maintaining contact with the Front Benches and keeping us informed. That is great, and I am grateful for it. I would be grateful if the Minister passed that on.

I also welcome an agreement that will reduce tariff barriers on trade with one of our closest allies, and which will allow those delivering services easier recognition of their qualifications and their ability to work across the two friendly countries, making it easier for businesses to invest in new technologies and recognise intellectual property, investment and digital. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, indicated, there are elements of concern, some of which are in the agricultural sector. Can the Minister confirm that the statutory TAC will see the texts of these agreements before the conclusion of the legal scrubbing and the formal approval, and before they are presented to Parliament for ratification? There are important consequences for our agriculture sectors that need deep scrutiny.

Although I welcome some of these elements, there is little doubt that the New Zealand Government have welcomed them even more. The Government have negotiated an agreement that provides very considerably greater competitive advantage to our friends. On their own assessment of the economic impact, the Government suggest that the agreement could actually reduce UK GDP over 15 years. The Prime Minister of Australia called this an “All-Black victory”. Coming from a rugby-mad area of the Scottish Borders, it is painful to hear our competitors say that it is yet another All-Black victory.

Over the weekend I looked at the New Zealand negotiating objectives for the UK and the EU. The EU completed its 11th round of negotiations in July. The New Zealanders were asking the same of the EU as they have asked for us. It seems we have given them all that they wanted and the EU is holding out on certain areas. The assessment from this Government suggests that, over 15 years, this agreement could represent a mid-range of 0.00% for UK GDP. For the EU, the mid-range was 0.01%. I would be very interested if the Minister could answer this question: what and where is the Brexit dividend for our trade with Australia and New Zealand if we are negotiating agreements that have resulted in the UK potentially benefiting less than we would have done if we were still part of the customs union and the single market?

It might be that the Government’s position is a cunning loss leader. As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, indicated, the Government seem to see this a gateway to the CPTPP. Can the Minister state what the Government’s position is with regard to China’s application? Does the UK support China acceding to the CPTPP?

I see the noble Lord, Lord Deben, in his seat, which has prompted me to ask a question regarding the Agreement on Climate Change, Trade and Sustainability, which New Zealand launched with Costa Rica, Fiji, Iceland, Norway and Switzerland. Will elements of this agreement allow for that agreement on trade and stability to be widened? The UK now has an agreement with four of those six countries, so what is the Government’s position on these negotiations?

We recently debated the UK’s significant trading power with Norway, which represents 10 times the size of trade with New Zealand. In that debate it was startling to find out that the UK had not secured any protection for geographical indicators for our produce. Can the Minister confirm, because it is hard to see it in the documentation that been presented, that the UK has secured protection of geographical indicators with New Zealand? This is one of the sticking points I referred to. It would be very interesting to know whether we have given way on this or whether we have asked for it.

My final question relates to the fact that we now have agreements in principle with Australia and with New Zealand, and we have a continuity agreement with Canada and negotiations advanced for discussion with it, but at no stage in any of those discussions have the Government suggested trade with the Commonwealth as an opportunity we could expand. Our relationship with Australia, Canada and New Zealand—the richest countries in the Commonwealth—is a platform for wider intra-Commonwealth trade. This is very close to my heart, having chaired a commission on Commonwealth trade with the Nigerian Trade Minister. It is a continuing disappointment that before the referendum we heard that Brexit would be an opportunity to widen Commonwealth trade, but in these key agreements with the richest countries in the Commonwealth we have heard nothing. What is the Brexit dividend for trade in the Commonwealth? Will we see a chapter in the New Zealand agreement looking at the expansion of wider Commonwealth trade?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am grateful for the comments made by the noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Purvis, on this deal. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the proposed deal in this House. I will certainly pass on the compliments of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, to my noble friend Lord Grimstone for keeping us all in touch with what is going on.

As the House will know, on 20 October 2021 the Government agreed the main details of the deal. The leaders reaffirmed the enduring partnership between the UK and New Zealand during their discussion and agreed to work closely together on important areas of mutual interest such as defence, technology collaboration and tackling climate change, including through a clean tech partnership. But, as the House will know, this is in effect an agreement in principle, not dissimilar to the Australia deal. The AIP document reflects what the UK and New Zealand negotiating teams have jointly decided as of 20 October should be included in the agreement.

I want to answer as many questions as I can. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, raised the subject of the accession to the CPTPP. As I think he and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, acknowledged, this is an exciting opportunity for the UK. This agreement is a gateway into the CPTPP, which is a huge free trade area of 11 Pacific nations. Joining this group will mean more opportunities for British exports to those high-growth markets. Demand for beef and lamb is increasing in the Asian market, and CPTPP countries are estimated to account for 21% of global meat imports in 2030—which goes a little way to giving some statistics, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis.

I shall say a little more about this in a moment, but the deal does not undercut farmers. We have ensured that there will be protections for the industry, including staged tariff liberalisation to allow farmers sufficient time to adapt, as well as a general bilateral safeguard mechanism—I understand that, for certain sensitive goods, this will be up to 15 years. Goods that are exported to New Zealand are tariff-free, which I am sure noble Lords will know.

The concern about this deal being a threat to our farmers was, again, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. New Zealand lamb complements British lamb. New Zealand and the UK have different lamb seasons—let us use the word counter-seasonality, which is the expression I have got used to. Our consumers have been buying high-standard, high-quality New Zealand lamb for years. The UK will not be flooded with Kiwi lamb. New Zealand already has tariff-free access through its WTO quota but in 2020 used less than half that quota, meaning that the Kiwis could already export more sheepmeat to us tariff-free but, interestingly, choose not to. I shall give some further statistics to the noble Lord: New Zealand sheepmeat exports to the UK have fallen by nearly half over the past decade, and New Zealand sheepmeat is already committed to the rapidly growing Asia-Pacific markets. In 2020, around half of its sheepmeat exports went to China, a country mentioned by the noble Lord, while 55% of beef exports went to Asia and the Pacific. In a nutshell, this is a great opportunity for UK farmers.

The opportunities for UK businesses are also worth mentioning. As I mentioned earlier, UK exporters will no longer have to pay tariffs on any goods. This means that they can do business at lower costs and gain an advantage over international rivals in the New Zealand import market, a market which is expected to grow, as was mentioned earlier, by around 30% by 2030. In addition, red tape will be cut for businesses which export to New Zealand, including 6,200 UK SMEs, opening up opportunities for more small businesses to grow their customer base abroad with the necessary online support. It is important to mention data. The free flow of trusted data, which is essential for modern businesses, will be guaranteed between the UK and New Zealand, making it easier for UK businesses trading digitally to break into the New Zealand market.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, raised some questions about the National Farmers’ Union, which I am aware has expressed some concerns. I hope that I can reassure him and the NFU that we are carefully considering the individual combined effect of the agreements that we are negotiating, including enhanced export opportunities for UK agricultural producers. This agreement in principle with New Zealand is without prejudice to other trade deals, and we will consider each negotiation within the context of our trading relationship with that partner. There is no one-size-fits-all approach, which goes a little way to answering the question from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, in relation to the EU. We are working closely across government to ensure that our trade policy does not undermine UK farmers and producers of agricultural goods and that any deal includes protections for the agricultural sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, raised a point about standards. Perhaps I can give some reassurance by saying that, like the UK, New Zealand is a global leader in animal welfare, and both countries share a commitment to further improving and advancing our already high animal welfare standards. For example, the UK and New Zealand have both banned the use of sow stalls for pork production, and battery cages will be banned in New Zealand from 2022, having been banned in the UK from 2012.

The noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Purvis, raised a point about the TAC. We know that it has just been set up, but I give the reassurance that we believe that it has been appointed and set up at the right time. Free trade agreement negotiations continue up until the moment of signature, and the commission will have ample time to do its job and report on the final deal. However, the TAC’s role is not, and never has been, to advise on live negotiations; it is a bit a further down the line.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked about rules of origin—I think he mentioned geographical focus. The rules of origin should ensure that only products made in the UK and New Zealand benefit under the agreement in principle, create opportunities for UK and New Zealand businesses to source better and cheaper inputs than currently and provide modern and predictable rules, making it as simple as possible for businesses, particularly SMEs, to trade with New Zealand using the preferential tariffs.

I think that there were other questions raised. I hope that I have covered some of them, but I appreciate the points raised. I shall look at Hansard and make sure that I write if I have to.

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee stage
Thursday 15th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I know it is not in order in these proceedings to have points of order from Members, but a solution, given the very valid point made by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, is to allow this pause to happen. It is highly unusual for government amendments to be presented in Committee and for the Minister to indicate that answers to questions raised in Committee will be provided after a vote for them to pass has happened. There is no ability for the House to reflect on the letter from the Minister. A solution would be for the Government not to press these amendments in Committee but to bring them back on Report, which may well happen very straightforwardly. That may well be the solution.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I am listening to the various comments from around the House. I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester rose to suggest that he was against us moving the amendments. However, bearing in mind the mood of the Committee, we will withdraw this amendment.

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who spoke to Amendment 39 on Thursday and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, today. As I mentioned last week as we debated Amendment 12, our continuity programme is fully compliant with environmental obligations, such as those found in the Paris Agreement on climate change. So, too, is it fully compliant with the UN sustainable development goals.

I welcome and support the objectives of the SDGs, and I assure your Lordships that the work of my department is always in alignment with important multilateral commitments. As our continuity programme seeks to replicate existing EU agreements, it follows that it is absolutely coherent with existing international obligations, including the UN sustainable development goals, and it will remain so. On that basis, I believe that this amendment is unnecessary.

Amendment 97 would oblige the Government to lay before Parliament a further assessment of the impact of our free trade agreements with the least developed countries and lower-middle-income countries before commencing the substantive provisions of the Trade Bill, and again every 12 months afterwards. I can assure noble Lords that the Government are determined to continue playing their role as an engaged partner to the developing world. We have signed continuity agreements with the CARIFORUM states, the Eastern and Southern African states, the Southern African Customs Union bloc and others. Discussions with further developing countries continue, and my department hopes to make good progress in delivering continuity before the end of the year.

In terms of questions that were raised on Thursday relating to communication and transparency, we are committed to providing Parliament with updates on our trade programmes with the developing world, which we are delivering through our parliamentary reports, where that is relevant, a regular and productive dialogue with parliamentary committees at ministerial and official levels, and a report which the DIT will make to Parliament. I remind your Lordships that we are seeking only to replicate the provisions of the EU’s agreements with developing countries.

Ultimately, we do not believe it is proportionate or sensible to provide reports every year, when our objective is continuity with the status quo. As our continuity agreements clearly safeguard such international commitments and the Government are wholly committed to the preservation and improvement of the environment, I ask for the amendments to be withdrawn.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to those who have spoken within this group, even with the slightly disjointed timing of breaking within the group. I wish to comment on a couple of things that the Minister said before I sit down. In so doing, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for the support of his party. These are cross-party efforts.

My noble friend Lady Northover, in her excellent contribution, said that our ability to negotiate around the world is helped by our good standing in the world. I think that is absolutely right. She referenced the Fairtrade Foundation, and our support for fair trade and the work of the Fairtrade Foundation is a major way to communicate how we see our trading relationships around the world. We on these Benches agree with free and fair trade—not no trade, which I think was the thrust of the contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, in this group.

My amendment is not a Trojan horse for those who seek to make the case against global trade; rather it is to put markers down that our trade should be of the highest ethical approach. That is why I was so glad to hear the contributions of my noble friend Lord Chidgey and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who both displayed real dedication on this topic. I pay tribute to my noble friend for his leadership of the All-Party Group on Africa.

The noble Lord, Lord Harris, referenced the fact that we should see our trade holistically: that is a very good way of describing it. We do not negotiate in isolation; often, we have bilateral trade negotiations but increasingly, as with the least developed countries, we are negotiating with regional groupings. They have their own development priorities, which we also support.

The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, asked where we are on the current trajectory. There was not a lot of information from the Minister on that. I can quote to her from the reply that Theo Clarke MP and I received from Greg Hands and James Duddridge on 16 September. We had written a letter in our capacity as co-chairs of the All-Party Group on Trade out of Poverty. The annexe to that letter, in reply to our request for information of exactly the kind the noble Baroness asked for, was rather depressing. The Minister said:

“The Government aim to see good progress”.


I think we all wish to see good progress. However, in regard to the SACUM EPA, which he referenced, of South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, Eswatini, Lesotho and Mozambique, only South Africa and Botswana have ratified; the others have yet to ratify. There is a mixed situation on the Eastern and Southern Africa EPA, with Mauritius, Seychelles, Zimbabwe, Madagascar and Comoros. They are eligible to join the EPA but have not yet joined; therefore, it has not been agreed with us.

On the east African community, which I singled out in my speech, with regards to Kenya, the only information is that these are discussions that are ongoing. The Government said,

“You will understand that it would not be appropriate to give further details on the status of these discussions before they have concluded”,


but Kenya has been dropped from the ongoing engagement. I am not sure if it is in order to notify to the clerk at the desk orally instead of emailing him that I would like the Minister to respond to this, but I would like information about Kenya. The reason I think Kenya is so important is that it is where Theresa May, as our Prime Minister, chose to visit to announce that the UK would be the biggest investor in Africa in the G7 by next year. That target has been dropped, with little explanation as to why. The target is now:

“We want the UK to be the investment partner of choice”


for Africa. It is rather symbolic that, despite that announcement made in Kenya, it now looks unlikely that there will be an agreement with Kenya at the end of this year.

On the final regional grouping, of Ghana, Cameroon and Côte d’Ivoire, discussions are ongoing. It does not paint a very strong picture about how ready we are to trade on an EPA basis rather than a WTO basis on 1 January. The Minister also did not respond to the very good question my noble friend Lady Northover asked: if that is to be the case, will the Government ensure that we stand ready to support all those countries, so that there are no additional costs for trading with us on WTO terms?

On the previous group, I was interested in the response of the noble Lord, Lord Grimstone, to his noble friend Lord Lansley. The committee was told, on the point about having sufficient time to scrutinise some of these agreements, that there would likely be a cliff edge if some of them were made close to the end of the year, so that there would be insufficient time to allow an extended period of scrutiny by the committee. I was under the impression that, if we have reached agreement in principle under the WTO, we can provisionally apply agreements. I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify, and correct me if I am wrong, that there will not be a cliff edge, but that we will be allowed some proper time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I have taken note of a number of questions raised by the noble Lord and I think it best to address them in a letter, so I shall write to him, while liaising with my noble friend Lord Grimstone.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for this amendment, and for his scrutiny of the devolution provisions in the Bill throughout its passage. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for his points, which I will address later. Ensuring that the Bill works for the whole of the UK remains a priority for the Government, so I am pleased to inform your Lordships that yesterday the National Assembly for Wales voted in favour of granting consent to the Bill. I ask that this House consider that when weighing the scrutiny of the Bill in the context of the devolution settlements.

The practical purpose of the amendment is that the UK Government should, as a matter of course, seek the agreement of the devolved Administrations prior to legislating in areas of devolved competence. This is not, in principle, an area of contention; rather, the question is whether this should be on the face of the Bill. I reiterate that the UK Government are committed to not normally using the powers in the Bill to legislate in areas of devolved competence without the consent of the relevant devolved Administrations, and certainly not without first consulting them.

We have respected the role of the devolved Administrations through our programme of engagement with them, government amendments in the other place and my renewed commitment today. The Government will maintain this commitment. More broadly, the UK Government have been working productively and collaboratively with the devolved Administrations on a number of fronts. UK government officials are working with devolved Administration officials to revise the common frameworks analysis and take into account progress on framework areas since March 2018. The Government anticipate publishing a further iteration of this analysis shortly.

During our debates on this legislation, there have been many areas of agreement between us and noble Lords on the opposite Bench. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, was correct to say in Committee that the use of the powers in devolved areas is,

“more complicated than can be dealt with within the confines of the Trade Bill.”—[Official Report, 23/1/19; col. 724.]

Additionally, the amendment risks setting a precedent whereby competence for policy-making is defined outside the established devolution settlements. It seeks to go further than the convention already recognised in the most recent Scotland and Wales Acts, and could require the court to make a decision on whether or not we were in normal circumstances. I do not believe it is the intention of this House to introduce new legal uncertainty to our statute book.

The Supreme Court made it clear in the judgment on the Miller case that it does not believe it is appropriate for the courts to police the Sewel convention, as it does not lie within the constitutional remit of the judiciary. By inviting this potential judicial scrutiny, the amendment could obstruct the programme of continuity that the Bill seeks to deliver, as the use of the powers could be substantially delayed, to the detriment of the UK as a whole.

I shall now deal with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, when he mentioned the Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill. As he knows, I was not involved with that Bill, but I hope that I can help. The amendment to that Bill requires the Secretary of State only to consult. Amendment 28 involves a consent requirement. Those are very different—and this plays into the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. For reasons that we have set out, the consent requirement would create a legal test for the courts, and therefore uncertainty. The powers in the healthcare Bill are different, too. The benefit of the concurrent powers in the Trade Bill is that they allow for the relevant Administrations to legislate themselves where a matter falls under devolved competence, and also allows Ministers of the Crown to make regulations for the whole UK when that makes sense.

As well as the benefits to the devolved Administrations of the concurrent powers, we have made repeated commitments on the Floor of both Houses always to consult the relevant devolved Administration. To take up the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, about creating legal uncertainty, although the amendment includes the word “convention” in its title, it uses words that appear designed to turn the convention into a legal test. It uses the words “may not normally”, which appear designed to make that a legal rule justiciable by the courts. This could be a substantial block on the use of the Clause 1 and 2 powers, and could lead to delay through litigation, or, ultimately, to a block on the use of the powers if the court judged the situation to be normal. This could allow a challenger the power to withhold consent to the implementation of part of an agreement, meaning that the UK could not bring it into force until the matter was resolved.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

Clearly, I would always defer to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, on these issues, but I had a slight anxiety when I heard the Minister say from the Dispatch Box that UK Ministers would be allowed to make regulations where they considered that that “made sense”. That is not language that we have become accustomed to in devolution practices over the past 20 years. UK Ministers could say almost all the time that it made sense for them to bring forward such regulations, especially in the context of trade agreements that they themselves had negotiated. But that is not the point. The point is that the legislative competences are not those of UK Ministers, but those of other bodes. All we ask is that the practices that have been developed, which have now been adopted in the Scotland Act—it contains language recognising that the Parliament of the United Kingdom “will not normally legislate”—be continued. That is now well established in statute. I cannot see why the Government say that it would cause problems in a separate statute, because it is already in statute.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said. He referred to the point I made about making sense, and legislative efficiency after consultation with the devolved Administrations is what we are looking for. So in effect, I believe that we are on the same side of the fence. But given that we are getting into some quite detailed discussions and debates and my job is to give answers, it may be helpful if we go into such detail outside the Chamber with a further meeting. I have not finished yet, but I hope that so far I have given some reassurance to noble Lords.

Returning to my opening point, the vote yesterday in support of a legislative consent Motion by the National Assembly for Wales is a significant endorsement of the Trade Bill, and I am pleased that the UK Government have been able to meet all of the Welsh Government’s requests to improve the Bill. The Assembly’s vote recognises the UK Government’s meaningful efforts in ensuring that the Bill works for the UK. I hope that I have provided sufficient reassurance on the Government’s commitment, and the potential unintended consequences of this amendment. Therefore, I ask the noble Lord not to press Amendment 28.

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I very much take note of what my noble friend has said. I have no doubt that that point, and so many others, will be taken into account when these negotiations commence.

I wanted just to clarify one point that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, raised on the issue of “all necessary steps”, which is engrained in the clause to which his amendment refers. It is a point that the Government are reflecting on, but I absolutely reaffirm our objective of as close a relationship as possible with the EU in this particular subject. I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment on the basis of those remarks.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I am grateful to the Minister for his characteristically thorough response, except that we still have Clause 6 in limbo to some extent. I am not sure how long the Government can reflect on the language of their Bill, which the Government brought to the House without stating whether they intend to bring forward amendments on Report to change it. I think the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, made a very good point: this is a very significant issue that requires a degree of forewarning on what the Government’s intentions will be. I suspect we may just have to wait; we have pressed the Government enough at this stage with regards to getting some clarity on that point. It is frustrating that we still have some question marks that are being raised over the language of the Government’s legislation.

On the second point, I understand what the Minister says. There will not necessarily be any easy answers to this, but my point was that there can well be a marked difference between co-operation with, and participation in, European institutions—I think this is the point the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, was making, and I share his view. The European Union has been clear on that in the past. Indeed, on the previous day of Committee, my noble friend Lord Foster took part in the debate on communications and the regulatory bodies in the European Union for that. More recently, the European Union has changed its position to make it even harder for third countries to participate in the European agencies. Our bodies co-operate with the Food and Drug Administration in the United States. We have co-operation which is very deep, but when it comes to the key elements of whether medicines or vaccines are licensed, whether the research will be accepted on a reciprocal basis, and whether data is shared and can be legally shared between the two regulatory bodies, there are still issues that need to be identified.

It is reassuring to know that it is the Government’s intent, from the White Paper onwards, that we would have active participation, but at the moment it seems as if the political statement trumps that because it is more recent. However, the Government have reissued their position on active participation and, in advance of waiting to see what they bring forward on Report—if, indeed, they do so—I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

As I said earlier, I have some more remarks to make about the process for future trade agreements. What I said about the Israeli agreement was that when a continuity agreement is finalised, it will be laid with an Explanatory Memorandum and report and will be under the affirmative procedure.

I will briefly touch on what we have already committed to in this area. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Trade reiterated in an Oral Statement that Parliament should have a crucial role to play in future free trade agreements. The Government will ensure that parliamentarians are given the opportunity to consider the level of ambition of the Government’s approach to negotiations and the potential implications of any agreements. We will lay our outline approach to each negotiation before both Houses in order to facilitate that before we begin negotiations. During negotiations the Government will keep both Houses updated on progress, including providing analysis of appropriate points. Once an FTA has been negotiated, it will need to be implemented and then ratified. I remind the House that free trade agreements cannot of themselves change domestic law.

To implement a new trade agreement with a new partner, the Government will bring forward a bespoke piece of primary legislation for each new trade agreement that requires changes to legislation where there are no existing powers. Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise the new legislation in the normal way.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; his contributions are helpful. This may be a technical point, because we have had an element of that statement from the Government at Second Reading. There could be a marked difference regarding a trade agreement that could have a big impact on our country, but which does not require any changes to primary legislation. If a trade agreement does not require any changes to primary legislation because that is still on the statute book, the Government are proposing that no measures be brought to Parliament to approve—only the primary legislation, if that does not currently exist. The case made by noble Lords is that a trade agreement in its own right needs to come forward for authorisation, regardless of whether it requires additional primary legislation. That is the point we need to get across.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord makes a good point. I reassure him that what is also very important is that the negotiation and scrutiny of these trade agreements has to allow for a certain flexibility. I will go on to say a little more about the process, because implicit in it is that treaties between different types of countries using different types of products can be extremely different, as the noble Lord will be aware, so flexibility is very important.

The legislation must be brought forward before ratification, as I was saying. The same will be true of our future relationship with the EU, which will surely require detailed implementing legislation. I hope this demonstrates that the Government are already committed to Parliament being able to shape and scrutinise future trade agreements. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, said about current processes and steps in considering trade agreements. However, since July work has been taking place in both Houses to consider Parliament’s role in future free trade agreements. The Constitution Committee has an ongoing inquiry into the parliamentary scrutiny of treaties. The Joint Committee on Human Rights is inquiring into human rights protections in international agreements, and that touches on Parliament’s role. In the other place, the International Trade Committee published a report just after Christmas that makes a number of recommendations in this area.

To assist the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, the Government are listening carefully to these views and we are conducting our own work. We have little quarrel with his remarks and aspirations, and I hope there is agreement there. We recognise, not least following the resolution of this House on Monday, that more detail is needed on how we envisage Parliament—and particularly this House—being involved in the scrutiny of trade agreements. The question of how Parliament scrutinises future FTAs must be answered, with the benefit of close and considered dialogue between the Government and Members of Parliament. I have listened to the contributions of noble Lords today, and I assure the Committee and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that we will reflect on them seriously. I confirm again that we will bring forward our proposals with more detail before Report.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

That is very helpful. As the Minister knows, the devolved Administrations have also submitted evidence to the International Trade Committee in the Commons and are participating in the revision process. The devolved Administrations were mentioned specifically in the resolution of this House last Monday. I wonder if, in advance of the Government bringing forward any of their proposals, they could write to noble Lords or give a clear statement on how they envisage the devolved Administrations, and potentially the regions of England and the combined authorities, having an active role.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I thank the noble Lord for that. It does indeed take us back to the debate we had last week, and I hope he remembers that I gave certain reassurances on that point. What I can say—without having the details in front of me—is that, as he knows, there is ongoing dialogue with the devolved Administrations to ensure that they are kept fully in touch with what we are doing. That will be the general tenor of the ongoing discussions as we look forward to FTAs.

I would like to pick up on some of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, in the last debate as they are relevant to this point. He asked how our approach differs from the role of the European Parliament in EU trade negotiations. He may well know this but I shall spell it out: the European Parliament’s role operates in relation to EU trade policy. We are offering scrutiny for the UK Parliament at every stage of the process in a way that is appropriate and proportionate to the UK constitutional context. In the UK, the power to make treaties is a power held by government, but the context of the negotiations will be different. The European Commission negotiates free trade agreements representing the interests of the 28 member states. It is given the mandate to do so by the Council, and final agreements are approved by the European Parliament and the Council before they can come into force. UK-only free trade agreements will be negotiated by the elected Government in the best interests of the UK. The Ministers responsible for the negotiations are directly accountable to Parliament.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I said at the beginning that this is likely to be a wide-ranging debate; my noble friend’s remarks will indeed be fed into the processes being considered at the moment.

I would like to address a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who asked what access parliamentarians would have to negotiating texts. We take seriously our commitment to keeping Parliament apprised of the Government’s negotiating intentions. That is for the purposes not just of transmitting information but of inviting scrutiny and allowing Parliament and its committees to take informed views. While we support Parliament’s important scrutiny role, Ministers have a specific responsibility, which Parliament has endorsed, not to release information that could undermine our negotiating position. On transparency more generally, I reiterate our commitment to a transparent approach. We are developing proposals for the release of updates on negotiations; we will bring these forward shortly.

Let me say more about the consultation process, an issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson. The amendments also seek to ensure wide consultation on FTAs, which is a good idea; indeed, that is the approach the Government are taking. We conducted one of the largest consultation exercises ever undertaken for the new FTAs we are considering with partners without an existing FTA with the EU—the US, New Zealand and Australia—and for our potential accession to CPTPP. This included a 14-week public consultation open to all businesses, individuals and other organisations in the UK and abroad, and 12 outreach events throughout the UK, including in each of the devolved nations. We have also conducted ongoing engagement with stakeholders on trade policy, including “town hall” style briefings, roundtables with different groups of stakeholders, regular stakeholder briefings and webinars designed to engage with smaller and regional stakeholders.

I would also like to touch on impact assessments. I do not propose to address—

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; he is being very tolerant. He may recall that I mentioned on Second Reading that I took part in one of those consultations, posing—if that is the correct word—as a Scottish business and taking part in the Government’s consultation on the prospective trade agreement with the United States. I mentioned then and repeat now that in that consultation, I was presented with no information about what the parameters of any trade arrangements with the United States were likely to be. In effect, I was being asked questions the parameters of which I did not know. That is not meaningful consultation. Can the Government reflect on the consultation process they have carried out? I do not believe it was sufficiently meaningful.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I am listening to the noble Lord. I do not know the details of that negotiation, but I will take that back and reflect on it. There may have been some very good reasons why the information was not forthcoming, but I will reflect on that and write to the noble Lord with some information.

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, the Committee will notice that we have another change of driver—or perhaps a navigator having temporary control of the wheel. If I read the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Purvis, correctly, the intention behind the amendments is to ensure that the voices of the devolved Governments are heard in relation to trade agreements. That is something that the UK Government entirely support. Indeed, the Department for International Trade is in discussion with the devolved Administrations on their role in future trade agreements.

To give a little more information to the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, the UK Government are committed to working closely with the devolved Administrations to deliver a future trade policy that works for the whole of the UK. But it is important that we do this within the context of the current constitutional make-up of the UK, while acknowledging that international trade policy is a reserved matter. To go further, we are currently having detailed discussions with the devolved Administrations at official level on their role in future trade arrangements, with the aim of agreeing new working arrangements before EU exit. In fact, we are continuing this engagement later this week.

I am happy to provide assurance to the House that our clear intention is that there will be a formal and regular intergovernmental ministerial forum to consider future trade agreements. The devolved Administrations already participate in other ministerial forums, such as those for EU negotiations. Frequency and any terms of reference are subject to further discussions and agreement with the devolved Administrations. However, we expect the forum to include our Minister for Trade Policy and his or her counterparts in the devolved Administrations.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked some questions on this point. The UK Government view securing an agreement with all the devolved Administrations as the best possible scenario, and it is the one that we will continue to work towards. We are committed to securing LCMs for the Trade Bill and have worked closely with the devolved Administrations to understand and respond to their concerns. As a result, we have made amendments to the Bill that answer many of those concerns.

The requirement for Ministers of devolved Administrations to seek the consent of the UK Government when making regulations that come into effect before exit day, or that relate to quota arrangements, has changed to a requirement to consult, of which I suspect the noble Lord will be aware. We will continue to respect the devolution settlements as they relate to trade agreement continuity and future FTAs. We will not normally legislate in areas of devolved competence without the consent of the devolved Administrations, and certainly not without first consulting them.

The amendment, however, would apply to existing trade agreements only and is, in this context, not proportionate. Clause 2 will be used only to ensure the continuity of existing trade agreements that are already in force. It will not be used for future trade agreements. Therefore, Amendment 17 would add risk to the swift and timely rollover of existing trade agreements. Given that these agreements are or will be already in force and that the purpose is to ensure continuity, the amendment is, at best, disproportionate and could mean that we were unable to deliver crucial continuity for businesses and consumers throughout the United Kingdom. For that reason, the Government cannot support Amendment 17. I hope that I have provided sufficient assurances on our intentions for engagement with the devolved Administrations in trade agreements.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

On the first point, it is very helpful to hear about discussions taking place through ministerial forums. This would be, I think, outwith the memorandum of understanding process in the joint ministerial committees, which have now been well established for 20 years as the intergovernmental framework between the devolved Administrations and the UK Government. I am sure the Minister is always very careful and specific with his language: I heard him say “forum” but I did not hear him say “joint ministerial committee” or “intergovernmental committee”. A little more information about that would be helpful.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I can help the noble Lord. I was very careful to use the word “forum”—but perhaps I should have used “fora”, which of course is the plural. The reason for that is that the process is designed to mirror what has worked with the EU up to now. We want to replicate the terms that are used for EU negotiations by not calling it a joint ministerial committee. But I understand the intention behind the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, using that term.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

We may be dealing with semantics here, but I will certainly write to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis. My understanding is that there is a reason, but it is not a particularly big reason, which is that the difference between a joint ministerial committee—the expression that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has just used—and a forum is that for a forum the devolved Administrations are seeking and are getting more regular and frequent conversations with us in the UK Government. I think a letter should clarify that.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed]

I am grateful that the Minister will be providing a letter. As the Commons committee and others have said, such a forum, which will include other groups, including representatives from the Administrations, should not be seen as an alternative to the mechanism of joint ministerial intergovernmental committees, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, are more about the discussions that take place about legislative competences. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, indicated, this is important now. The Minister said it is important that the continuity agreements are done swiftly. These continuity agreements may be in place for three years at the least, but they can be extended time and again. The agreements currently in place with the EU are permanent agreements, therefore we would be bringing into UK legislation what could well become permanent agreements. It is therefore important that if there are outstanding issues about where those competences lie, they are cleared through some form of intergovernmental process. If those points could be addressed in the Minister’s letter, I would be most grateful.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I will certainly address the extra points that the noble Lord has made. The point I want to emphasise to the Committee today is that this forum is being regarded as particularly serious in the times that we are in. I have mentioned some names to be included as part of that forum, but this is work in progress.

On Amendment 76, the UK Government recognise the important role each devolved Administration will play in the implementation of the Trade Bill. The Government are also committed to ensuring that withdrawal from the EU is a successful and smooth process for the whole of the UK. The use of concurrent powers is in keeping with existing devolution arrangements. It allows for regulations to be made once for the whole of the UK where it makes practical sense to do so. The intention behind this is legislative efficiency.

The noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, asked about the implications for the Trade Bill of the freezing power in the EU withdrawal Act. We have been clear that the regulations to freeze competence to preserve our existing frameworks are not a mechanism for avoiding seeking legislative consent when creating our future frameworks. Without wishing to labour the point, I reiterate my earlier commitment that the UK Government will not normally use these powers to amend legislation in devolved areas without the consent of the relevant devolved Administrations and certainly not without first consulting them.

I acknowledge the mini-debate started by the noble Lord, Lord Hain. In essence, he asked whether the concurrent powers amount to a power grab—I think that is the expression he used. Under the Trade Bill, every decision that the devolved Administrations can make before exit they will be able to make after exit. The augmentation powers in the Trade Bill will be held by both the UK Government and the devolved Administrations. This approach will provide greater flexibility in how transition agreements are implemented, manage legal risks where competence boundaries are unclear, and allow for a reduced volume of legislation. The noble Lord invited me to write, and if he is not satisfied with that answer, I will certainly follow up with a letter should he wish.

NHS: US Companies

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 22nd March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

My noble friend is right. The main point to make is that the same strong safeguards as we have now will be in place once we leave the EU. These include: that all providers of NHS healthcare in the UK must meet our standards of safety and quality; that staff must be registered with UK regulatory bodies; that decisions on which services to provide are locally led by clinicians; and that NHS hospitals will remain state owned.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Does the Minister accept that there is a considerable lack of transparency in the discussions taking place in the US-UK trade working group currently under way? If the group had been set up under the aegis of the European trade rules there would have been a scoping exercise about the breadth of the discussions, which would have been published, and the Commission and the Council would have sought a mandate from the European Parliament. Is it not unacceptable that Britain’s representatives in the European Parliament would have a greater degree of oversight over any discussions than its representatives in this Parliament would? That is perhaps why, under TTIP, access to the National Health Service was indeed excluded.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

The noble Lord raised the question of transparency. Perhaps I may point out to him that, as we set out in the White Paper Preparing for our Future UK Trade Policy, we are committed to a transparent and inclusive trade policy. So it is there in writing, and the noble Lord should be reassured.

Carbon Emissions

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 16th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, estimates of the carbon savings from the zero-carbon homes policy in England have been included in the updated emissions projections published by the Department of Energy and Climate Change. In the next update of those projections the Government will be taking into account the decision not to proceed with the zero-carbon allowable solutions carbon offsetting scheme for homes or the 2016 increase in on-site energy efficiency standards.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

But is the Minister not aware of the deep concern in response to this decision about the impact not only on climate change but on the construction industry? The UK Green Building Council called it,

“short-sighted, unnecessary, retrograde and damaging to the house building industry which has invested heavily in delivering energy efficient homes”.

Does he recall that his noble friend the Minister Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon told this House in November:

“I assure noble Lords that the Government will strengthen standards and deliver zero-carbon homes from 2016. That is and remains a clear commitment on which we will be held accountable if we do not deliver”.—[Official Report, 5/11/14; col. 1709.]?

How will the Minister hold his noble friend to account for this failure to deliver?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

I understand that the noble Lord is exercised about this but research has shown that the zero-carbon standard would have placed a significant regulatory burden on housebuilders and developers. These changes will give rise to the challenge of building more homes, including new starter homes. The carbon offsetting element—the so-called “allowable solutions”—would count as a tax on developers and would be of no benefit to the homebuyer, so we are giving the industry some breathing space.

Royal Mail: Universal Postal Service

Debate between Lord Purvis of Tweed and Viscount Younger of Leckie

Thursday 19th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

It is called Royal Mail because the universal service includes the Queen’s head, which will remain on the stamps—as set in stone.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Does my noble friend agree that perhaps the biggest threat to the enshrinement of the universal postal service across the United Kingdom is the Scottish Government’s ill considered plans for independence, which would put at risk United Kingdom postal services overall? Does he also agree that perhaps the most vulnerable communities are in the most sparsely populated areas across Britain, including the Scottish borders and the rural Scottish highlands? We are already seeing some providers offer a poorer and more expensive postal service. In support, therefore, of the request of the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, does the Minister agree that Ofcom should pay particular attention to those living in the most rural parts of the United Kingdom?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

This very much ties in with the question raised by my noble friend Lord Deben. I reiterate that Royal Mail cannot refuse to deliver, or stop delivering to, rural areas; nor can it introduce different prices for rural areas as part of the universal service. The minimum requirements of the universal postal service are enshrined in law and include six-day delivery to every address in the UK, urban and rural, including in Scotland.